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Are We Making A Mistake?

Discussion in 'North / South Carolina Flyway Forum' started by The Mad Duck, Mar 17, 2019 at 8:15 AM.

  1. The Mad Duck

    The Mad Duck Elite Refuge Member

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    I was watching the news a couple of days ago about a Confederate statue that was removed from it's spot in Winston Salem. The statue had been there for over a hundred years. The statue and others like it have been the target of people that are offended by a SMALL part of what the confederate states/civil was about. Schools are teaching that the Civil War was a racial war, all about slavery and freeing slaves. This isn't totally true. A good deal of the Civil War was about economic tensions between the North and South. Yes slavery was an issue, but not the main issue. Lincoln didn't free the slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation because he only felt it was immoral. He also didn’t free the slaves in the union states or border states. He did it to try to cripple the South's labor pool and weaken them even more economically. He thought that freed slaves would rush north and bolster the economy of the north with cheap labor. In a way,Lincoln was using the slaves almost as badly as the slave states were.
    Ok, enough history lesson. Back to the statues.
    Are we making a mistake, by removing these statues, OR, should we leave them in place and remember our history? History isn't always a pretty thing,BUT, as many have said before, If history is erased, we are doomed to keep making the same mistakes. Don't we need reminders of what we DON'T need to repeat?
    Are we so easily offended that history has to be erased or altered to fit an agenda?

    Lastly, Most of these statues are monuments honoring VETERANS of a war in this country. Regardless of which side they fought for, that doesn't change the fact that they are veterans and fought bravely. Many Confederate soldiers didn't fight because they wanted to keep slaves. Most Confederate soldiers were dirt poor farmers and fought because they got paid to fight and that helped feed their families. Is it a mistake to assume that these men were evil and don't deserve a place in history?

    Now, I am in NO WAY condoning slavery, so please don't think I am supporting it. I believe it to be one of the worst evils to happen in all of history.
    I do however, believe that we don't need to alter or erase the history of this country, for better or worse, and, I sure as hell don't think we should be dishonoring veterans of this country, regardless of what side they fought on in a war.
     
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  2. tbuscap

    tbuscap New Member

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    I’m only gonna address a couple of the points you touch on, since I’m still having my morning coffee. First the Civil War was about slavery. You can try to argue it was over states rights or “economic tensions,” but only in their direct regard to slavery. It was a war over states rights to keep slaves and economic tensions brought on by the practice of owning other human beings. No matter how anyone tries to spin it, Slavery was the core issue during the Civil War. I challenge anyone to find some issue that isn’t directly related to slavery that drove the Civil War.

    Second, the veterans of this war fought either in protection of this country or in direct revolt against it. So by trying to honor veterans of the confederacy you are actually attempting to honor people that rose up in arms in open rebellion against this country. So I’m not overly concerned about removing monuments to these people that stood against this country fighting for the right to own other people.
     
  3. The Mad Duck

    The Mad Duck Elite Refuge Member

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    If the Civil war was all about slavery,why didn't Lincoln free the slaves in the Union states and border states?
     
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  4. deac

    deac Elite Refuge Member

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    The question of whether secession was legal was not decided by the Supreme Court until 1869 (Texas v. White).
    Most folks, north and south, believed States had the right to leave a Union they had voluntarily joined.
    Which is precisely why the Union never tried J Davis for treason, quietly dropping the charges after delaying for four years. Because if the Southern States had legally seceded then Davis (and the southern soldiers) were not US citizens and therefore couldn't be charged with Treason. They were afraid, with good reason, that a trial would result in Secession being declared legal.
    These men were not traitors...
     
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  5. coachcornbread

    coachcornbread Elite Refuge Member

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    If someone’s feelings are hurt by a chunk of granite then they have some deeply rooted issues.
     
  6. H20DAD

    H20DAD Elite Refuge Member

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    And somebodies grandchild’s grandchild will someday remove an MLK statue because he talked about people having content of their character and not their actions being dictated by the state.

    All the pharaohs largely removed the memories of the pharaohs before them.

    People didn’t learn from history then and they won’t learn from it now.

    You want to focus on something worthwhile teach anybody you can why socialism is scary as all hell, it could save this country and your grandchildren’s liberty. Otherwise none of anything else that matters to you will be allowed.
     
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  7. soiltester

    soiltester Elite Refuge Member

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    Ya' can't change history, but the radicals sure are trying to, and look what shape our country has gotten into :bow

    It's only down hill from here on, and not going to improve one bit, until it's all scewed up royally :tu
    That being said, can't say that probably it all ready is scewed:l
     
  8. SeaDux1

    SeaDux1 Elite Refuge Member

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    A history book would work wonders for you sir.
     
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  9. SeaDux1

    SeaDux1 Elite Refuge Member

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    Im taking the challenge the prove that slavery was not the cause of the "civil war" or War for Southern Independence.

    I hope all people will learn the real American History.

    Here are the LIES about Confederate History.

    The South started the War. WRONG. According to historian Richard N. Current, In Lincoln and the First Shot, Lincoln maneuvered the South into a showdown. His short list included Fort Pickens and Fort Pensacola, and the war could just as easily "started" in one of those places. The South had peacefully taken, offered to pay for, about 65 other federal facilities, before taking Fort Sumter.

    The War started when the South fired on Fort Sumter. WRONG. Had the North not conquered the South, and not written the history books, we would read a different story. President Davis held that the War started 2 weeks before the firing on Fort Sumter, when United States supply ships set sail to reinforce Fort Sumter.

    The War started because Southern States left the Union. WRONG. The Confederacy and the United States were at peace for several months, and could have continued at peace. Secession did not start the war.

    Secession is against the U.S. Constitution. WRONG. It is not in the constitution. The first states to vote to secede were New England states during the War of 1812. Jefferson Davis was released from prison after the War because the US finally admitted it had no case against him.

    The American Civil War was a time when the country fought itself. This is the version taught by the winners, who write the history. Our side is that War for Southern Independence involved one country invading another country, and that country defending its independence -- The Second American Revolution.

    The war's main cause was slavery. WRONG. Slavery was a cause of the War but not the ONLY cause. There were many causes including 1) Control of Congress; whoever controlled the votes made the laws 2) MONEY --Lincoln said that he could not let the South secede, because 2/3 rds of the treasury income came from the South 3) Who would control the vote in the new territories. 4) The tariff issue, a tax imposed unfairly on the South.

    The war was fought to free the slaves. WRONG US War aims were to preserve the Union or to put down "the Rebellion". There was no campaign against slavery until nearly halfway through the war, and US general typically protected slavery in the territories they occupied.

    Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves in 1863. WRONG. It didn't free any slaves in the US and the Southern States were controlled by the C.S.A, so none were freed there. This would be like the President Trump today decreeing the Minimum wage in $25 an hour in Canada.

    The Confederacy was based on Racism. WRONG. Jews served in the highest CSA government positions, just under the President, at the same time that General U.S. Grant was expelling Jews from occupied Louisiana with General Order 11, which reads like later orders from the Nazis, and may have served as a model. Native Americans supported the Confederacy, the highest-ranking American Indian on either side, General Stan Watie, CSA, the last general to surrender. Hispanics fought primary for the South, and the highest ranking Hispanic on either side was Colonel Santos Benavides of the 37th Texas Cavalry, CSA.

    No Blacks fought for the South, only for the North in segregated units. WRONG. Stonewall Jackson had some 3000 black Southerners integrated in his ranks. They served as teamsters, cooks, personal servants, and many times picked up guns and saw action.

    Sherman's War in Georgia and North & South Carolina may have been excessive in some ways, but it was needed to end the war more quickly. WRONG. Sherman Nazi-like Scorched Earth policy of a War of Terror on civilians was against of rules of war of the time, and Sherman, Halleck, and Lincoln knew it. Halleck him taught those rules at West Point to US Army cadets, including Sherman.

    This concludes Part 1 of American History and the War for Southern Independence. I'll Post Part 2 later on.
     
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  10. SeaDux1

    SeaDux1 Elite Refuge Member

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    Part 2

    Freed Blacks were in the North, and blacks in the South were all enslaved. WRONG. There were more Free Men of Color in the Slave States than in the Free States, according to the US Census of 1860

    The War was needed to end slavery. WRONG. Slavery ended everywhere else in the world without war. And slavery was dying out and would have ended in another 20 years (like it did in other slave countries, e.g. Brazil).

    The Slave states were ALL in the South. WRONG. The United States had 5 slave states. And one of them came into the US in 1863 on the condition that it could keep its slaves! And if secession was wrong, why did the United States cause the secession of a state into the US in 1863?

    But those were the "border" States. WRONG. There were 2 countries in the War, the United States and the Confederate States. There was no country called the "The Border States"

    The War ended Slavery. WRONG. Slavery was legal in the United States during and even after the War. It was not until December 1865 that slavery was ended in the US, more than half a year after the defeat of the Confederacy.

    If blacks did fight for the South, they were forced to fight. WRONG. Tennessee Pension records provide black Southerners accounts of fighting for their counrty, the CSA, of being captured by the US, then escaping back to the South. Every one of them rejoined his unit. George Washington Yancey was captured by the enemy 3 times, escaped each time, rejoined his unit, and continued fighting for his country, the Confederate States of America (Rollins's Black Southerners in Gray, 1994)

    But why would a black fight for the South? Blacks fought for their country, the CSA, for the same reason the whites fought. To protect their homes and families from a foreign invader. We need to get away from this racist and separatist ideology that assumes there are differences - Black Americans have always fought for their country. 5000 blacks fought in the Revolutionary War, many of them slaves, and were offered immediate emancipation by the British if they changed sides. Most did not and remained loyal to their country.

    The South was racist. WRONG. There was and has always been more racism in the North than in the South. For example in Illinois, the Land of Lincoln, a Free Black could be whipped for the crime of being in state for more than 3 days. In Nevada, the state constitution called for disallowing blacks to live in that state.

    The Confederacy copied the US Constitution. WRONG It was the other way around - it was already our constitution. Southerns wrote it in the first place. We just made some improvements, like outlawing the slave trade, adding the line -item veto, and changing the president's tenure to one 6 year term.

    This concludes my points. Fear not all the above mentioned points are all fact. The history that has been taught for decades of the War for Southern Independence have been lies.
     
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