California Condor Making a Comeback

Discussion in 'California Flyway Forum' started by Tuck31, Sep 20, 2017.

  1. tule

    tule Elite Refuge Member

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    Come on, you are telling me that you havn't paid attention to the outdoor community over the last decade?? You didnt hear about DFG not planting streams in Cencal (when I get the time to dig up the new stories I will post it, or better yet, maybe you can research it further?) and why gravel quarries in the Santa Cruz mountains were shut down because of an "endangered" frog, in your words. And you really believe the stats put forth of the blood levels of lead..............and that it wasnt a political ploy? You have fun walking around with your head up Californias Political ***!! And eat up all that fake news the liberals put out, they love stringing people like you along. When I get back from taking my son out to enjoy hunting while it lasts this weekend, I will post directly to you, the links to the stories I posted.
     
  2. J.Bennett

    J.Bennett Elite Refuge Member

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    How much does a bear or coyote weigh compared to a condor? How many ounces of lead would a bear or coyote have to ingest to get an equivalent dose of lead/body weight that a condor gets from ingesting a single bullet (or even a fragment of one)? Do coyotes and bears have gizzards that grind up the bullets or fragments that make it easier for the lead to pass into the blood stream or do they just pass through their system and come out the other end for the most part?

    No it wasn't a political decision by those who came up with it. That's not to say that there weren't those who supported it for purely political reasons, as there were plenty of them, but the decision to propose it was not a political one.

    Bullets, even those that pass through, leave lead particles behind. You could also just as easily ask, "How many remained after the condors got to it before the bears and coyotes got their share?" Unless of course you have some information that suggests that condors are always the last scavengers to feed on a carcass/gut pile.

    Condors were (and still are, though according to the article, to a lesser degree) being poisoned by lead at epidemic rates. The only way to reduce the lead exposure is to reduce the amount of lead in the environment. All other sources that introduce lead into the environment had already been significantly reduced or eliminated long ago. Ammunition was the last source of "new" lead in the environment. If all these other potential sources have been all but eliminated, and the condors are still experiencing high levels of lead poisoning (and lead bullet fragments are being found in the digestive tracts of lead poisoned condors), it is logical (not fantastical) that lead from ammunition is a contributing factor.
     
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  3. Tuck31

    Tuck31 Elite Refuge Member

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    All speculation that lead bullets are the cause. Not so sure your facts are right about other lead sources being eliminated.
    I am more than willing to look at the evidence of lead bullet fragments being found in gizzards, but I remain very skeptical. And they aren't much different in weight to a coyote and other scavengers.

    They have found a bogeyman and they are riding it for all its worth.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  4. J.Bennett

    J.Bennett Elite Refuge Member

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    You continue to think in absolutes... Never said that bullets are the (only) cause, only that they were a contributing factor. Never said eliminated, said significantly reduced or eliminated. Leaded gasoline, lead paint, etc. While the residue from such is still present, they are no longer adding to the problem. Lead ammo was still adding to the problem.

    The presence of lead bullets, fragments, and shot in the digestive tracts of condors is extremely well documented.
     
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  5. mudhen

    mudhen Elite Refuge Member

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    JB is throwing heat on this one...

    Donnie says birds have gizzards, bears don't...birds beets bears...

    I have an idea...let's put sport hunting to a vote in California and see what happens...

    Tons of big game non-tox in shops these days...check out the CA approved list...duckAndy even has SW loaded up with brand new stuff like Norma PH non-tox (- 20% than on-line btw)...

    This bus is about to invert itself it's getting so short...

    Go JB!!
     
  6. J.Bennett

    J.Bennett Elite Refuge Member

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    I think that the biggest reason why there is so much resistance from hunters regarding this subject is simply due to the fact that we live in CA where for every hunter there are 100 non-hunters, and there are anti-hunters constantly looking for ways to limit how much hunting we can do... You look at AZ and UT and when the biologists (the same ones involved with the condors here, by the way) said "we have a lead poisoning problem," hunters there voluntarily took it upon themselves to either remove gut piles, bury them, or use non-lead ammo... Crazy how lead poisoning is no longer an issue with that population of condors, isn't it?
     
  7. Specktacular

    Specktacular Senior Refuge Member

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    Um, NO it's not. Show me a reputable study documenting this fact. The only "proof" that lead ammunition causes poisoning of condors was when they force-fed large amounts of lead into birds in captivity at levels they would never see in the wild and measured their blood lead levels after that. What HAS been shown is that the isotope label of the lead found in condors is NOT the same as that found in ammunition, but matches that of lead found in paint. Have another glass of kool-aid.
     
  8. sacbob

    sacbob Elite Refuge Member

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    I agree as a society we waste too much time on T&E species. However our duly elected politicians set the course. All our bureaucrats are doing is caring out the law.
     
  9. ditchbanker

    ditchbanker Elite Refuge Member

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    I'll try my hand at a 'big conspiracy theory' on this one...

    Who has profited the most from lead bans?
    hmmm...
    how many lead-shooting firearms are gathering dust in your safe?
    how many NEW steel-safe guns do you own?
    how about all the new faster and faster steel ammo?
    shoulder feeling the pain?
    no problem...lets invent lighter and lighter shock absorbing $1500 shotguns !

    carry on...
     
  10. sacbob

    sacbob Elite Refuge Member

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    I doubt it. But, who knows?
     
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