California Condor Making a Comeback

Discussion in 'California Flyway Forum' started by Tuck31, Sep 20, 2017.

  1. Specktacular

    Specktacular Senior Refuge Member

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    Actually, if you took the time to read the studies(which I have, several yrs ago when this debate first surfaced), you would find that the studies used by those supporting the lead ban are ridiculously designed and make absurd conclusions and claims based on sham "science." The studies that allege "proving" lead ingestion by condors are ones in which they fed massive amounts of lead BBB's to birds in captivity and then measured their serum Pb concentration. Naturally, it went up(but not by as much as you'd expect and only a small percentage of them died). The amount they fed them though was a quantity they'd NEVER ingest in the wild. Those studies(and more like it) are the ones used by those with an agenda to eliminate lead without any proof of it's effect on the condor's demise. There are also countless studies now that show, despite a nearly 100% compliance rate by hunters using non-lead in the Condor range, the Condor continued to decline without the alleged ammunition lead source. There's plenty of data in the studies posted on the website if you took the time to read them. Like I said, it's not my job to educate you or read them to you. It's called objective reasoning. Look at the evidence from both sides and form your OWN conclusion, rather than believe what they want you to believe. Most of the studies used by the anti-lead "scientists" would NEVER see the light of day in a reputable scientific journal as they're not worth the paper they're written on.
     
  2. J.Bennett

    J.Bennett Elite Refuge Member

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    And if you took the time to read the studies (which I have), you would know that not a single one of them involves force-feeding lead to condors or presents evidence that the lead found in condors comes from lead paint and not ammo (based on isotopic signatures).

    Again, please direct me to any study that involved intentionally feeding condors lead. I looked through the website that you directed me too, and no such study is to be found there.

    Also, please provide a link for a study that presents evidence that suggests that most of the lead exposure experienced by condors comes from lead paint.

    You stated that the only evidence of lead from ammo in the digestive tracts of condors comes from a study in which they were force fed lead ammo and that the isotopic signature of the lead found in condors' blood samples is the same as lead paint and does not match that of ammunition... I am calling bs. Back up your statements or shut up and quit spreading lies.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
  3. callinfowl

    callinfowl Kalifornia Forum

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    Wait a damn minute, what is this a disagreement without name calling or belittling?
    Very strange for the refuge.:l:l:l
    Thank you.:clap:tu
     
  4. lewdogg21

    lewdogg21 Senior Refuge Member

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    The birds arent very smart. Buddy of mine owns a ranch smack middle of condor land. They eat roadside trash and get sick. Then the condor rescue folks show up like an ambulance. They also gorge themselves so much that they can't fly sometimes. I read the article with the study that showed that the lead in them was naturally occurring a few years back when it came out that groups were lobbying Brown to not sign based upon this fatal flaw of the lead study. After that I realized it's about "feeling good" and limiting with the end goal of eliminating hunting, guns, etc.
     
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  5. Specktacular

    Specktacular Senior Refuge Member

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    I don't know why I'm wasting my time with you. You clearly are one of those guys who thinks he knows everything and can't be swayed, despite clear and irrefutable evidence otherwise. Let me guess, you believe in Russian collusion and human-caused global warming as well? Here's the link to the study frequently cited by those with the anti-lead agenda. Took a 30 second Google search to find it. You should try it sometime. It's not on the HuntForTruth website because it's a GARBAGE study. Why would HFT list it on their website when it shows NOTHING and is largely a joke?? Unlike you, I don't rely on one website or point of view to form my conclusions. I investigate the facts from both sides and form an unbiased conclusion. The isotope study is out there too. I'm not wasting my time trying to teach you how to think or use a computer. Find it for yourself. Now, how bout you provide me one clear, well-designed study that definitively shows a link between ingested lead ammunition and the decline of the Condor. In your own words, "I am calling bs. Back up your statements or shut up and quit spreading lies."

    https://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/natu..._Lead Poisoning in Captive Andean Condors.pdf
     
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  6. Specktacular

    Specktacular Senior Refuge Member

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  7. J.Bennett

    J.Bennett Elite Refuge Member

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    The only claim I made was in regards to the presence of lead bullets/fragments of bullets/shot in the digestive tract of condors. I said that it was well documented. Here is an example of such documentation:
    http://www.ventanaws.org/species_condors_lead/gallery/lead2.htm

    You claimed that the only documentation of condors ingesting lead ammo was from a study in which they were force-fed that ammo. Was condor (of the California, not Andean variety) #318 part of that study that you referenced?

    Still waiting for anything that suggests that
    Lead paint that was sampled where? From homes nationwide or from the structures found in the condor's range?

    You are looking for absolute undeniable proof that lead from ammunition is poisoning condors... No one has claimed that such exists (not even the folks that work on the condor project). All evidence points towards lead ammo as being the only significant source of "new" lead in the environment that is contributing to the lead poisoning issue with condors.

    Here is what has been undeniably proven (stuff that the lawyers who run hunt for truth won't even attempt to deny):

    Lead is toxic. It is interesting that they say that metallic lead (like what bullets are made out of) "tends to not be bioavailable to biological systems" but then go on to admit that metallic lead is toxic to waterfowl due in part to their "unusual digestive physiology," notably their "gizzard that acts as a mechanical “grinder” to break down food items by muscular contraction and grinding of food against the sand/rocks..." They do their level best to make it sound as though gizzards are something unique to waterfowl. Any ornithologists out there reading this can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that condors, just like all birds, have that piece of anatomy as well...

    Condors and other raptors can (and occasionally do) accidentally ingest lead ammunition. How frequently this actually occurs is definitely up for debate, but the fact that it has and does occur is documented. The Hunt for Truth folks downplay this and are careful in how they reference it, "Rarely, if ever, has an actual projectile fragment been found in the digestive tract of a California condor." If there wasn't some undeniable evidence that projectile fragments had been found in condors, they would have used different language (as you did), but since it is a law firm which owns and operates the website, they choose their language very carefully. They are careful not to say that there is no proof of condors ingesting lead ammo, but instead point to "compelling evidence of alternative sources of lead in the environment." Note that they say "in the environment" as opposed to ingested by condors. Why did they say it that way? Because there is no evidence to suggest that any of these other sources (sources, which by the way have all been banned or mitigated to large degree) are ingested at a more significant rate than lead ammo (or that they are even ingested at all), while there is proof that lead ammo has been (though that doesn't mean that it is the only source).

    Isotope studies have shown that the lead found in lead poisoned condors' blood has isotope ratios consistent with those found in lead ammunition (and inconsistent with the lead paint found on structures located within the condor's current range). That's not to say that the blood samples are only consistent with lead ammo, but that lead ammo is one of the possible sources of the lead in their blood. Hunt for Truth tries to cast doubt on this fact by pointing to studies involving homes painted with lead paint nationwide (which provides a much wider range of ratios) and says that the isotope ratios found in condors falls within the range of these nationwide samples (ignoring the fact that there are only a few structures within the condor range painted with lead paint that the condors are known to frequent, which means the ratio range is much narrower than it would be nationwide). They correctly point out that it may fall in the range of other sources (sources, which by the way have all been banned or mitigated to large degree) of lead in the environment, but offer no evidence of condors being poisoned by those other sources.

    Every free-flying condor is tracked, and its whereabouts are known on an almost daily basis. Hunt for Truth hints that the condors might be hanging around lead mines and dump sites and ingesting lead from those locations and disregards the fact that the condor recovery team would know if they were.

    So, putting it all together (you know, looking at all sources and coming up with a logical, objective conclusion as opposed to "drinking kool-aid"):

    Metallic lead is poisonous to condors (and other birds) if ingested due to their physiology (gizzards).

    Condors experience high levels of lead poisoning and lead poisoned condors have been found with lead ammo in their digestive tracts (as I mentioned, not even Hunt for Truth will deny this).

    Lead paint, lead pipes, leaded gasoline, and lead wheel weights have all been banned. Car batteries are the only significant source of lead from batteries and these now have a deposit that is refundable when you turn in your old battery, significantly increasing the number of them that end up being recycled (besides, it doesn't seem all that plausible that a condor would crack open an old car battery and eat the lead out of it). This leaves lead ammunition as the only significant source of new lead in the environment that hasn't been banned or mitigated in any significant, meaningful manner.

    Lead found in the vast majority of condor blood samples is consistent with multiple sources of lead (but not the lead paint found in the condor range) and of those sources, ammunition is the only one that has not been banned or significantly mitigated.

    Given the above, the non-kool-aid drinking conclusion that I come up with is this: Nothing good comes from adding more lead into the environment, lead from ammo is pretty much the only remaining source of "new" lead adding to what already may be present in the condor's environment, it is likely contributing to the high incidence of lead poisoning experienced by free-flying condors, it should probably be banned or mitigated like other sources have been, and huntfortruth.org is a good source if you are looking for half-truths and misdirection.
     
  8. Refugeguy

    Refugeguy Senior Refuge Member

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    Can you two get a room and kiss alredy
     
  9. callinfowl

    callinfowl Kalifornia Forum

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    At least no one has told the other to blow it out of thier pie hole yet. :l:tu:tu
     
  10. Michael

    Michael Elite Refuge Member

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    what if we left the argument that lead shot did or didn't..

    ....how has the change truly affected you?...Has it gotten too expensive to hunt? do you shoot lees because of it? I don't really see the downside to the ban. Yes, I understand the mixed arguments, but to me, there is no reason to put lead into the environment if there are affordable alternatives...I just don't get it. Do you just have to be right?.....Lead sucks.... We as hunters and outdoorsmen should be on board with this..

    ....loved lead shot, still killing birds.


    regardless, the condor is gonna die...22 is to small a number...
     
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