Dog training information

Discussion in 'Gun Dog Forum' started by Easterncanadafowler, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. Easterncanadafowler

    Easterncanadafowler Senior Refuge Member

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    I see a lot of on line media on the subject and was wondering what you guy recommend.
    I'm getting kinda soft and would rather reward with praise than treats or ear pinching to force fetch but I'm pretty green at this stuff and don't even have a pup yet.Thanks
     
  2. Doc E

    Doc E Elite Refuge Member

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    Start a puppy out with treat training and praise ---- then graduate to
    a better system (force based) like the Smartwork series by Evan Graham.
    Evan also posts here on the Gun Dog Forum ---- None or the others do.
    .
     
  3. labber1

    labber1 Senior Refuge Member

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    There are a few good programs out there. Familiarize yourself with a structured program. You need to know the plan before you start into one. Check this out.
    http://www.totalretriever.com/images/FlowChartDownload.pdf

    The breeder that we spoke of, near you, would be a great resource for guidance.
    The retriever club near you is also a great opportunity to meet your goals, whatever they may be. Check the National Retriever Club Of Canada. Events section, to find clubs, and contacts.
     
  4. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    There are several programs that work. The "green" aspect will impact using any of them. The fact is
    after the decision to to use which one is made, the "green" trainer will have to get a grasp on how to
    teach. Reading the program is the easy part.....teaching it is the challenge. Every pup is unique and
    making consistently correct decisions on what to do next is the key.

    The best approach is to find a mentor that will provide some guidance in what your puppy needs most.
    And if you continue to do what the pup needs (not necessarily what the program says is required),
    you will learn how to teach.

    Your comments require some interpretation. Why do you mention that being soft tends to drive your
    preferences? Rewards come in all kind of packages. Treats, the e-collar and ear pinching vary quite a
    bit.

    I have used treats, pinched ears and not pinched ears or used treats). Training is a process and when
    done properly it will be difficult to tell from the performance of a well trained dog how they arrived at
    that level.

    It is up to you to focus mostly on teaching and there are very few programs that tell you how to teach.
    A good mentor will keep you "out of left field". However, you will need a mentor that uses the program
    you decide to use.

    Frankly, I don't know of any program that is not driven by rewards and praise. However, that is sometimes
    lost in the process of doing tasks. All too often, what the pup needs is lost in the drive to do what is next
    in the program. The inexperienced are often "sucked" into the vortex of corrections and pressure to make up
    for poor teaching. A good mentor will not allow you to go there.

    I didn't use treats or ear pinch my most recent pup............and I am not soft. :h

    Pounce is getting ready to run AKC master tests next summer.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  5. Easterncanadafowler

    Easterncanadafowler Senior Refuge Member

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    I guess what I meant about be getting soft is that i did not want to pinch the dogs ear to get it to do something however after actually watching it being done I understand the concept behind it and would have no issues with it.Originally i thought it was a form of punishment and i should have watched the training vids prior to my comment.My ultimate goal is to have an obedient dog who obeys well ,is a good hunting partner and walking partner for my wife.Id be kidding myself if i thought i had the time and knowledge to train FC dog.I want one that will sit in the blind with us, get the birds in a timely manner only when told to and not be a pain in the Butt...
     
  6. EvanG

    EvanG Elite Refuge Member

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    This is one of the more common misconceptions about force-based training. We don't apply force as a teaching method, and its purpose is not to merely subdue a dog into compliance. Something you'll need to learn about if you plan to train your dog thoroughly and fairly is pressure conditioning. Conditioning to pressure is one of the very best things you can do for a working retriever.

    Training is a three phase process: Teach, Force, Reinforce. Everyone generally comprehends the first part. Many do not understand the second two.

    Teach: the guiding of behavior and rewarding it. Using rewards like treats is a common mode. Some people like using audible markers, like clickers for this.
    Force: the use of pressure accomplishes a couple important goals. It formalizes standard commands that should already have been taught. We can talk more about that later. But the over arching theme of Basics is pressure conditioning. Each dog reacts to pressure differently, and may destabilize with different amounts. If you don't provide your dog with a sound course of conditioning to pressure you will miss out on two important benefits: A stable performance under command when perceived pressure is present, and the knowledge of what level of pressure can regularly be used to correct or compel as needed.
    Reinforce: Reinforcement is structured activity, i.e. daily training, that solidifies previously established trained behaviors. Drills and exercises that feature standard skills keep these skills alive and intact.

    Questions so far?

    EvanG
     
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  7. Easterncanadafowler

    Easterncanadafowler Senior Refuge Member

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    Evan,This all new to me and what i had done in the past was read the book called water dog I believe and go from there.I know the book was old when i read it years ago and i dont even remember if it talked about pressure and i've since given it away.
    I am not being arguementitive and am just trying to learn.I ran across many of the training videos on line called the wildrose way , the gentleman's gun dog and they do not use shock collars.I have watched 15-50 of his you-tube videos and it "looked like" a system that would work.I have been pm'ing another member who's be guiding me a bit and he said it's not something he would recommend and I value his opinion and all opinions.
     
  8. Doc E

    Doc E Elite Refuge Member

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    Cough - cough
    and
    Cough - cough.
    .
     
  9. EvanG

    EvanG Elite Refuge Member

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    Terry,

    They are correctly called e-collars. Richard Wolters was a good writer. He wasn't really a trainer, but the books have been well marketed over many years, including all the decades since they have been antiquated. There are many false notions in the retriever training world, most of which are connected with Wolters and Milner. It's the principle difference between mere marketing and actual training. I'll be glad to explain any principle or training technique you would like to know about. Please ask anything you like.

    EvanG
    www.evan-graham.net
     
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