Geese & Corn.... What to plant?

Discussion in 'Habitat Forum' started by DUCKDIGGLER, Apr 20, 2003.

  1. silvermallard

    silvermallard Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    3,682
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Are you guys actually reading the thread before posting these challenges? They've all been dealt with already.

    I HAVE NEVER SAID IT IS ILLEGAL TO HUNT OVER FLOODED AG CROPS! There is a big ole photo of me and a bunch of guests in a pit hunting a flooded cornfield right on the start page of my website, for crying out loud. :rolleyes:

    The issue here was quite clearly...from the beginning...one of INTENT TO REALIZE A HARVEST. And that phrase comes straight from the regs...verbatim.

    Look...no one says you have to believe me, or Gringo, or any of the other guys who've agreed with me about this. But, Good Lord, fellas! If you think I'm wrong, GET A COPY OF THE FULL REGULATIONS AND READ IT FOR YOURSELF! That's what I did...and talked to about 3 agri-biz attorneys, and talked to the agents in charge of the areas I've worked, and talked to the other Feds who have some role in this stuff in the areas I've worked, and talked to Regional Directors of USFWS, and talked to scores of other professional habitat managers about this. Among pros, this is common knowledge..."baiting 101" so to speak.

    I'm done with this topic. If you guys wanna post up on here about how you're gonna go out and plant ag crops with no intention of harvest and hunt ducks over them that's fine with me. I hope you post your hunting pics from those fields, too...with the birds you killed and a good description of the hunt including dates and witnesses. I can get a healthy reward for turning you in.;)
     
  2. jrchip1

    jrchip1 Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    1,034
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2003
    Location:
    Currently living in Pecan Island Camp
    Silver- Are you an expert in all fields? Just wondering. Millet is a grass seed and an agriculture crop FYI..
     
  3. silvermallard

    silvermallard Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    3,682
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Location:
    Hawaii
    No...just the one's I'm an expert in. You know, the stuff I do for a living and sit on state and national boards of directors and advisory committees for...like waterfowl habitat conservation and management. There are a few other things that fall in that category, and then a whole big, brave world full of stuff that doesn't.

    Do you really wanna start comparing resumes and checking references? It's the smart-aleck, hard-headed dilitante know-it-all's like yourself who make people with real expertise not want to contribute/interract on these forums. You see, when you're used to getting PAID for your advice on stuff like this and then you think, "you know what, I think I'll give it away to "Joe Duck Hunter" for free, and then fellas like you come along...who don't do their own homework but want to argue from an uninformed position with everything you say and then make smart-aleck personal remarks like that, it's pretty hard for a guy to not come to the conclusion that it just ain't worth it to try to do something nice. I became a moderator of this forum as a "giving back to the community" sort of thing. But lately, it seems most duck hunters want to attack everyone and every organization that tries to help them have better hunting.

    I did not say it was not a CROP, dim-wit. Geez! I said it is not categorized or handled...in regard to the subject at hand...like more mainstream AG COMMODITIES. This is true of virtually all grasses. Let me give you some examples to try and draw a picture with a big, fat crayon...

    Millet is treated SPECIFICALLY and UNIQUELY under the baiting regs...only specific plant handled that way in the regs. That is because in agri-business, it is considered a GRASS and not a foodstuff. Baiting regs and crop insurance guidelines both allow a farmer to use millet in ways they will not allow anything but grasses to be used. For example...if your corn, beans, or wheat suffers a catastrophic loss and you re-plant, your crop insurance settlement is diminished. But...if you re-plant with a cover crop like millet (or other grasses), there is no deduction. The simple reason is that this is a recommended soil retention practice...sewing grass over bare production fields. And I've already handled the way the baiting regs deal with millet. They treat it like naturally-occuring vegetation with one caveat - you cannot manipulate it if it is a first-year planting. The only other rule that a guy could get himself in trouble with millet over would be the appropriate dates for planting. If you broadcast it a week before duck season and get caught hunting it, you're in trouble.
     
  4. Mack Molloy

    Mack Molloy Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    1,740
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2000
    Location:
    Carrollton, MO USA
    I have been watching this topic and promised myself that I would keep my mouth shut:D But want to offer my opinion for what it matters.

    Lets take for instance the Missouri Department of Conservation (MDC) and compare them to Mack Molloy duck hunting guru. Each of us can plant crops with the intent to attract waterfowl and other wildlife. The main concern each of us should have is that in no way should we make the crop "more available" to wildlife. (ie knocking it down, shreading, etc.)

    Hunters on a MDC conservation area and Mack Molloy have the same situation. The crops are planted to attract waterfowl and there is no attemp to harvest the crop. We both can waive the recognized farming practice flag as long as we don't "make the crop more available."

    The federal guidelines are pretty specific and when you have a Federal Agent involved you need to have your ducks in a row.

    If you have questions, call your local conservation agent, NRCS or other field offices. I have always been pleased with the level of assistance and they want you to have an enjoyable season.

    Good luck everyone.

    Mack :)
     
  5. Beanpole

    Beanpole Senior Refuge Member

    Messages:
    319
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Location:
    Grand Prairie, AR
    All ag crops are treated the same. If you plant, a crop(corn,S/b, Milo, or rice) you have to manage all the field the same. You cannot partially harvest a field. You cannot leave one crop strip unharvested and another standing. Your post harvest management has to be the same.

    Native vegetation can be manipulated for waterfowl hunting. Buck brush can be cut, shooting holes can be bush hogged, and trees removed to "improve" areas.

    Here on the Grand Praire, we have corn, rice and Millets being planted for waterfowl plots. Most are done expressly for duck hunting and always on exclusive private clubs. They are fertilized and managed for maximum production. The field is then flooded and used for a rest area or hunted during the season.

    The decision to be made by the law is your intent. If you intend to plant a crop, harvest any portion other than 100%, then trouble can be expected. You have manipuilated a crop area!
     
  6. eastwoods

    eastwoods Senior Refuge Member

    Messages:
    194
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2003
    Location:
    bottoms
    Beanpole: that's what I was saying. Many people plant grain soley for duck hunting including federal and state agencies. The amount of people doing it and no court case to set any precedent...... I don't think so. "Intent to harvest" then is not what SM thinks it is.

    SM: whoever is paying/listening to you is not only misinformed, but putting up with a poor attitude. You need to show that a judge has decided one of these to your way of thinking. Sayng "someone said" is not going to cut it.

    I say leave it standing. Feed a bunch and shoot a few. The only things you can't do are manipulation and topsowing/scattering seed/bait.
     
  7. jrchip1

    jrchip1 Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    1,034
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2003
    Location:
    Currently living in Pecan Island Camp
    Silver- I enjoy Refuge Forum but I'll be dammed if you'll ever catch me sucking up to the likes of you - you arrogant so & so.
     
  8. Gringopistolero

    Gringopistolero Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    7,882
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Location:
    Paradise
    I have an idea on posts like this. Since I don't know USFWS it may not be do-able.
    Most Federal agencies have staff legal counsel, administrative law judges, etc. who WILL respond to properly conveyed and legitimate questions such as these. In fact, it is in the charter of some that they MUST. In those cases, failure to is a defense to prosecution of a violator.
    Most Federal regulations are written, hmmmm. how do I say it? Very SPECIFIC and unequivocal (to aide enforcement action) but also very cryptically with regards to assistance in the methods of compliance. Does that make sense to anyone but me?
    Federal Agencies Chief Legal Council and/or Administrative Law Judges and their assistance and staff attorneys often write policy memoranda re: enforcement strategies which are very helpful to those who are being regulated. NO, I know what you're thinking, NOT just to beat the system, but often to know how best to COMPLY.
    These documents (internal policy memos) are public information unless National Security is concerned. Even though agencies do not LIKE to dig them out many times, sometimes they are delighted to, and even post them on .gov websites.
    Has anyone asked for this kind of information?
     
  9. T_870

    T_870 Senior Refuge Member

    Messages:
    151
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Location:
    Oregon
    i just have a quick question, If i was to hunt a corn field that has been harvested so that a portion is left uncut in a u shape, so as to conceal hunters, blinds etc. is that considered baiting? Thanks
     
  10. Beanpole

    Beanpole Senior Refuge Member

    Messages:
    319
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Location:
    Grand Prairie, AR
    T_870

    The determination of your purpose of leaving standing crop is the KEY. Like I posted above,

    "The decision to be made by the law is your intent. If you intend to plant a crop, harvest any portion other than 100%, then trouble can be expected. You have manipuilated a crop area!"

    If the unharvested portion was left standing, I would make every attempt to harvest that crop. Some times with all the rain and backwater we have, it is not physically possible, nor financial rewarding as a farmer to harvest a water damaged crop. So you let that portion of the crop stay and move on!! The trick comes when you have an enforcement officer with his own interperation. You have to convince him of the circumstantces and why you made a decision to leave a partial crop. A set of combine ruts where you attempted harvest goes a long ways towards intent. I have seen hunting in legal harvested fields stopped until this can be established. Sometimes duck season ends before a decision is made.

    My advice would be to treat the whole field the same. The burden will be shifted to you if something bad happens. If is a commercial guiding operation, I would remove all doubt and be double dog careful to create a legal hunting scenerio.
     

Share This Page