Handling

Discussion in 'Gun Dog Forum' started by craig wilson, Aug 25, 2017.

  1. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    Using a rope for "pile work" indicates that the sit command is not a well conditioned response. :reader

     
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  2. Rick Hall

    Rick Hall Elite Refuge Member

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    Believe my first course would be single bumper "piles" to help break the current habit and start a new one. That, and a quick recall whistle.
     
  3. bullpinnie

    bullpinnie Elite Refuge Member

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    Agree. However, my point about using a check cord for wagon wheels was simply about being able to control the dog from shopping or picking up a second bumper. Honestly, with my dogs, I would use voice command to immediately recall them (attriton), or correct them. I'd guess this will probably be sufficient for his dogs as well.
     
  4. EvanG

    EvanG Elite Refuge Member

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    I really take issue with this assertion. A rope is just one aversive tool, but is highly effective and humane. Like other aversive instruments, the training rope (or check cord) extends the trainer's ability to enforce a previously taught command. In this case the command is 'sit'. I teach trainers to thoroughly teach the sit command before formalizing it during Heel & Sit work on a leash with the use of a heeling stick (the appropriate aversive for use at your side). This is a process like others that requires time and repetition.

    I also introduce puppies to sit to whistle, but I do not require them to be pressured until we formalize it later on. The same as with other obedience commands. There are certainly more ways than one to achieve the desired result. The three phased process of training is followed for sit to whistle, just as all the other standard obedience commands. Teach, Force, Reinforce.

    Extending distance follows a standard principle, so that the dog that sits promptly at short distances learns to stop just as promptly at very long distances. That standard principle is sequential progression. You don't go from stopping them at 25 yards and then go require the same response at 250 yards. That's why once we have completed formal Basics we take them (sequentially) through Transition, where they will grow up in a sequence of not only higher tasks, but also a sequence of stair stepped distances, so that their ability to accept higher standards under inherently more difficulty becomes easy. In the same way, we teach dogs to do quads by first training them to be competent on doubles first, then triples, then quads.

    Once you have thoroughly taught sit, and then formalized it over a course of time, you can then quite easily re-insert the whistle as an audible command for it. Having done that, you can begin e-collar conditioning. A lightweight poly ski rope is an excellent tool to enforce the sit command as you do exercises where you nuance the sit command into what is in effect a "stop & sit" function. In my program we begin with distances of only a few feet, and SEQUENTIALLY extend those distances as the dog moves along in the coursework.

    But understand this significant point: Distance erodes control.

    The further away a dog is from you, the less control you will tend to have. We overcome this natural fact through sequential development. Used properly, a rope is a very efficient tool in this process at shorter distances. We continue using it through Mini-T, and then transition to the use of e-collar reinforcement during full scale T work. We can discuss this at any length you like. But I'll tell you this. I don't like having yelling matches during training. I use aversive tools because they are effective, and they accomplish the goals of using pressure in dog training: they change behavior.

    EvanG
     
  5. Timber Hole

    Timber Hole Senior Refuge Member

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    Please explain. I'm not disagreeing I just don't understand what the sit command has to do with shopping the pile.

    Thanks.
     
  6. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    the original post was "How concerned should I be when my dog refuses to pick up a single dummy, always brings back 2 when I send him to the pile? I spread them out, but he insists on 2".

    There seems to be some issue about using a rope because of my post about not needing a rope when "working a pile". I used Evan's program for years and his process begins by first teaching a pup how to work a pile. It begins (as most programs do) with two bumpers up close and a rope (for some). Pup learns early on pick up one, return it and then get the other. The standard is taught before actually working a full blown pile.

    The fact that the OP has worked a pile and the dog is bringing back two at a time means the initial teaching was not done correctly. Continuing to do the same thing repeatedly means the proper, initial steps were bypassed and an undesirable expectation has been established. Using Evan's program correctly, when it came time to do full pile work, I never needed a rope and shopping or bringing back two bumpers was never an issue.
    . I
    Too repeat, I don't need a rope to make up for not doing a proper intro to pile work. It was not necessary when using Evan's program or the one I'm using now. Teach the basics in a simple form then move on. Pup can't pick up one out of two....does not know (expectation not taught) two is a mistake. The KISS method is very effective.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  7. bullpinnie

    bullpinnie Elite Refuge Member

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    I'm not sure that I am following you?......So is your suggestion to him to go back and reteach "sit"?


    IMO there is now easier way to teach sit than with a check cord and pinch collar....., but i am no professional.

    I think it would be helpful for the discussion if the OP let us know his intentions for his pup. Not every is going to run trials, or tests. I've had previous "meat dogs" that would pick up double, (and sometimes triples) in the field. i never considered it a bad thing, except on cripples. Sometime they even worked that out.
     
  8. craig wilson

    craig wilson Elite Refuge Member

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    Thanks for the help...... I got it figured out. It wasn't a huge deal to correct. I came to the page, just looking for some comradery and advice
    Thanks
     
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  9. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    Good or you, don't know why it seemed like a big deal for some. :z

    As for this :h,
    At one time, long ago, my dogs "learned on the job". We did OK. Then one day I visited an HRC training day. It was
    not long after that that having a well trained hunt test dog proved to be fun and efficient. It is often said that a Senior
    level trained retriever is a good "measuring stick" for what is needed in the blind. On the other hand, One does not
    have to run tests to have a well trained hunting retriever. :reader

    For me, testing simply provides something to do with my dogs for the "rest of the year". With my last five retrievers,
    we have worked to have at least a Senior level hunt test title. I am 77 years old and have a three year old that has
    just "measured up". She'll be running Master tests next summer in between mowing the lawn and waiting around for
    the next hunting season. And there will probably be another "next up" pup in a couple of years.

    Being retired is a "dirty job", but it seems to be "not boring". Just finishing off a new boat blind build for the "up coming"
    waterfowl season. :yes
     
  10. bullpinnie

    bullpinnie Elite Refuge Member

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    hang around, and I think you'll get plenty of both....., but sometimes more than you need.:l
     
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