Lead shot ban for dove hunting

Discussion in 'Hunters Rights Forum' started by lanthanide, Dec 11, 2014.

  1. marsh fox

    marsh fox Banned

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    You are a tryer bill i will give you that. :l:l They are ausies they are criminals anyway.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_43-4xjnVA
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  2. Steel3's

    Steel3's Elite Refuge Member

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    Naysayers about what?

    You made the statement that the lead ban "had nothing to do with ducks", which is not true at all.

    Read for yourself the best compilation of research on lead poisoning in waterfowl at: http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/birds/pbpoison/ and you will see that not only was lead-poisoning in waterfowl known in the late 1800's but that large-scale studies to estimate rates of lead ingestion started in 1938 with gizzard collections from many locations and provided the foundations for Bellrose's seminal work in 1959. Other similar large-scale gizzard collections showed INCREASING lead-ingestion rates into the 70's and 80's. The big increase in hunters in the 70's and declining waterfowl populations in the 80's increased the concern over lead-poisoning in DUCKS, not eagles, and was the reason for increasing pressure to ban lead-shot. Bellrose himself states that in the Introduction of the cited document.

    Read whatever report or publication you care to, the USFWS never called for a nationwide ban on lead-shot until forced by legal action by the National Wildlife Federation (NWF). However, lead-shot bans were implemented in "hot spots". Mandatory use of non-toxic shot for waterfowl hunting were implemented in some areas of the Atlantic Flyway in 1976, in the Mississippi Flyway in 1977, and some locations in the Central and Pacific Flyways in 1978 ...... NONE of them because of eagles.

    Take some time to read pages 19-22 of the Illinois Natural History Survey Report from 1989 titled "Lead Poisoning in Illinois Waterfowl (1977-1988) and the Implementation of Nontoxic Shot Regulations" which is a very nice synopsis of the legal action implementing mandatory steel-shot regulations.

    It wasn't until the 1985 season that pressure from conservation groups resulted in the USFWS proposing non-toxic zones in 30 counties in 8 states for the protection of bald eagles. But only 3 of those states consented, and lead-shot was allowed in the other 5 states. That set the stage for NWF lawsuits in 1985, which successfully used the Endangered Species Act to force lead-shot bans in the proposed counties in those other 5 states, and in 1986, which forced the lead-shot ban to go nationwide.

    Actually I said clearly: ".... it was almost all about ducks." Bald eagles and the Endangered Species Act were the tools that forced a nationwide lead-shot ban, but the controversy over use of lead-shot and lead-shot bans existed years before, and were focused entirely on DUCKS.

    Oh for heaven's sake ...... No we didn't! We fought it all the way. The state of California even sued the USFWS after the NWF lawsuits claiming they lacked the legal authority to force non-toxic shot regulations on un-willing states. But they lost. We didn't give up; we were beaten in court and forced to choose between steel-shot and closed waterfowl seasons.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  3. Steel3's

    Steel3's Elite Refuge Member

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    See above.
     
  4. bill cooksey

    bill cooksey Elite Refuge Member

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    Toxicity isn't the question. It's the rate at which they are actually being harmed. Since the dove population is exactly as stable as the weather during their breeding season, what harm is lead doing? We have a higher dove limit now than when I was a child, and when the weather cooperates during the nesting season, there are scads of doves. As to raptors, we have more now than at any point in my lifetime. Again, what species is being impacted? It's not doves and it's not raptors.

    I'm not concerned with "could." I'm concerned with facts. Are you concerned about the health of the species or the health of each individual animal/bird? Why are you still shooting lead where it is legal? Need a downrigger?
     
  5. Steel3's

    Steel3's Elite Refuge Member

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    Agreed.

    That is the same logic I use to stand against assault weapon or handgun bans. I have no interest in those weapons, and if I thought that banning them would end the debate over private gun ownership/use and end the attacks by anti-gunners .... I'd do it.

    But it won't. So I'll fight over assault weapons and handguns.
     
  6. bill cooksey

    bill cooksey Elite Refuge Member

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    And what do you know about this conservation/biology/science thing as it relates to our wildlife resources anyway.:l

    Had a good talk with Checkett today.
     
  7. TheDuckSlayer

    TheDuckSlayer Elite Refuge Member

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    No one is taking you up on the offer because a human life is worth infinitely more than a mallards life.

    I can't believe this is even a debate. Steel is expensive and is ballistically inferior to lead. Tungsten/bismuth/hevi shot is awesome but ultra expensive and 90% of shooters can not afford it. Mandate non tox and watch us lose millions of sportsmen. As our ranks get smaller we become an easier target. Bill said it perfectly. This would be another nail in the proverbial coffin.

    If any proof existed then this would be a different conversation. In the absence of proof, I can't believe this is even a debate among supposed "sportsmen."
     
  8. Steel3's

    Steel3's Elite Refuge Member

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    But that is NOT what Lanthanide said.

    He said, and I quote:

    Really? "Nothing to do with ducks"?

    It had quite a LOT to do with ducks. The initial bans had EVERYTHING to do with ducks.

    And if you want to attack misinformation, you do NOT do it with misinformation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  9. marsh fox

    marsh fox Banned

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    Same reason we all are its not illegal, but that does not cloud my judgement that its not good for the environment or anything else. I could shoot lead on pigeons but i acctualy use steel because there is a raady lucrative market in steel shot pigeons to the falconers in the uk.
    I do use lead for high driven phesant but thats because my game gun likes one 1oz load and i wont be in England even part time very soon so i dont need the work developing anything.
    If i were living here i would be sorting out steel for for sure, and probably be using it. Uptake is slow in the uk and in NZ but the mesage is getting through now.
     
  10. Kemo Sabe

    Kemo Sabe Refuge Member

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    You know, you hear that said a lot, but I truly doubt it would pan out that way. I mean, it's truly hard for me to believe that those who really love to hunt, would quit because they could not shoot lead. I know I will miss lead, but I sure as heck ain't going to quit hunting over losing it.

    Steel will work, just not as good. But plenty good enough.
     

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