Meritt...what's missing...O yeah.. THE DUCKS !

Discussion in 'Florida Flyway Forum' started by Waterfowl fool, Nov 30, 2008.

  1. dakota31400

    dakota31400 Senior Refuge Member

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    Thank you Patrick for the dike construction clarification....I am not an historian on the refuge....someone else mentioned the 40's regarding L and M ponds being in aerial photos back in the 40's.....I took their word for it...so be it, the area and surfacewaters were in fact part of a real esturanine system before the days of impoundments.....Now it makes more sense (time wise) as to how the fuge and surrounding wetlands became such waterfowl havens after the dikes were installed........Nature givith...nature takith back.
    The Waterfowl habitat there, so it appears was simply a product of succession in time, started by man....and now the same process has moved the habitat forward in time, beyond the ducks needs.
     
  2. mottler

    mottler Elite Refuge Member

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    The effect of losing the marsh emergent grass and it all becoming open water is very apparent on impounds left full by mosquito controll all these years. They are diligently working to stop that by draining, letting it oxidize and a seasonal flooding. It's a learning thing or Adaptive Management the new buzz word in biology these days. On the brighter side for the first time this season ducks in the Cooks pond today on Sykes Creek! just a couple bunches of bluebills but I think we had an influx finally from this front. Incidentally that pond is one of the last that is still artesian well fed. It has Ruppia in it all the time. Ulumay no longer grows any because it is connected back to the river with open culverts and it's too salty. Restored? yes but to what? Good thread here, I hope those following are more informed. Especially younger guys that weren't around in the heyday.
     
  3. dakota31400

    dakota31400 Senior Refuge Member

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    Past perspective of waterfowl habitat utilization in the area prior to impounding:

    Open River: Divers mainly, foraging for tubers and crustaceans as well as roosting.

    Marsh/River interface (now the shoreline adjacent to the dikes):
    Primarily foraging for shallow water marine vegetation and
    crustacaceans in and just outside the stands of mangrove.

    Interior Marsh: Safe Harbor, roost and in places (artesian well) fresh water.

    Marsh/upland interface: low salinity... different submergent vegetation for munchies, fresh storm water to drink and insects

    Now:

    Open River: Few Divers mainly, poor river conditions, no tubers and a skimpy crustacean menu, roosting still available.

    Marsh/River interface (still the shoreline adjacent to the dikes):
    Primarily foraging for shallow water marine vegetation not very appetizing, very few crustacea....Bordering Mangrove swamp responsible for these goodies is now gone.

    Interior Marsh: Still the same Safe Harbor, roost and in places (artesian well) fresh water.

    Marsh/upland interface: Now uplands and muddy spartina flats.


    I don't believe the interior marshes would have ever been primarily utilized for foraging....only safety.....The plan seems inside out to me:tu

    Where food needs to be...it's not....it's where safe harbor used to be.......now the whole gang spends all day there.....enough room is an issue though.
     
  4. dakota31400

    dakota31400 Senior Refuge Member

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    Has the subject just gotten old...or are we out of additional philosophy to contribute? I really want to know why the concept of attracting waterfowl to a new puddle for some takes precedent over restoring an entire ecosystem....even if it requires totally destroying that puddle....that really never was. Even strip miners re-plant the same seeds of the progeny they raped.
     
  5. Waterfowl fool

    Waterfowl fool Elite Refuge Member

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    Guess I need to go back aread everything, then I can give a semi-educated guess. Giv me over the weekend Dakota...
     
  6. du lifer

    du lifer Senior Refuge Member

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    Again, I'll re-iterate.

    The primary reason for loss of native SAV on and in the estuaries of Florida (Not just MINWR) and in the sweetwater marsh watersheds is NUTRIENT POLLUTION; from fertilizers, both AG and commercial, septic tanks and injection of gray water into the aquifer, and mining.

    The reason is simple. The explanations are complex and the solutions are even tougher. You can not simply restore sheet flow when you have all of the legacy nutrients at bay in the impoundments. Pat is correct about oxidizing muck. That?s one of many ways to get rid of excess N, but P is tougher, and will stay behind because it doesn?t convert to a gas. P binds with organic material and must be physically removed. N and P are the limiting factors in estuary surface water. N and P in extremely small concentrations cause nutrification. For example the TMDL for P in the Everglades is 10PPB, so until these issues are addressed, you would do more harm than good by removing levees.

    Hitch
     
  7. du lifer

    du lifer Senior Refuge Member

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    Here's a link to a thread on the UW-F public forum. On the top post is a link to a PDF file that explains the nutrient pollution issue, and the bio-mechanisms involved in laymen terms.

    http://www.unitedwaterfowlersfl.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7612

    You can't post PDF files here, so you'll have to go there to get it to read. Feel free to print and distribute it.

    It also shows some of what UW-F is doing to address these problems.

    D13400; not only do you not understand the entire issue, you don’t know UW-F. You think you do, but you don’t. Again, IGNORANCE.

    Hitch
     
  8. dakota31400

    dakota31400 Senior Refuge Member

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    Dulifer,

    the esturaine system along the entire east Florida coast, unlike Lake O or the everglades flushes much faster...even the wind over the course of a day moves inches of water...Inlets to the ocean are located up and down the Indian River..including Moquito Lagoon.

    Nutrient issues are now a regulatory enforcement issue in Florida....not unfixable.....more like political.

    The interruption of flow through the everglades is in itself the reason it became a nutrient sink...impounding Lake O, alligator alley, channeling the kississimee, St. Lucie Canal.........don't hand me your nutrient crud...it's not the cause, it's the result of people wanting to make money by building big and/or little puddles that can be filled and drained when they see fit.

    The dikes on MI are no different.

    Finally, I owned and operated an environmental assessmet and remediation company out of Loxahatchee for 9 years....spent 4 of them subcontracting sample collection activities for projects the SFWMD conducted in association with the glades phosphorus issue....Good friends with many consultants and SFWMD employees.......

    So tell me something new. Bottom line is the fix can't be sold to the public because of financial and political reprecussion.....IMO, something you are feeding on to get a duck puddle. Your capitalizing on a stalled issue....as well advocating the status quo.... But thats just my opinion.

    D13400; not only do you not understand the entire issue, you don’t know UW-F. You think you do, but you don’t. Again, IGNORANCE.

    How about some crackers with that wine....it will make your research efforts in quest of the truth easier. Who cares what UW-F's stance is...I sure don't.

    And lastly, your mannors need a little work too. I don't have the faintest idea what UW-F does, nor did I ever imply I did.... but if others in the organization share your arrogance, quite frankly, I'm glad your organization is the last thing on my mind.
     
  9. dakota31400

    dakota31400 Senior Refuge Member

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    The argument to ignorance is a logical fallacy of irrelevance occurring when one claims that something is true only because it hasn't been proved false, or that something is false only because it has not been proved true. A claim's truth or falsity depends upon supporting or refuting evidence to the claim, not the lack of support for a contrary or contradictory claim. (Contrary claims can't both be true but both can be false.

    The argument to ignorance seems to be more seductive when it can play upon wishful thinking. People who want to believe in immortality, for example, may be more prone to think that the lack of proof to the contrary of their desired belief is somehow relevant to supporting it.


    I HAVE AN OPINION BASED ON CONCEPT AND OBSERVATION...

    YOUR JUST SIMPLY CONVINCED THE WORLD REVOLVES AROUND URANUS
     
  10. du lifer

    du lifer Senior Refuge Member

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    The lagoon flushes faster?? I doubt it; but with untreated stormwater run-off, gray water migration in the ground water and especially the septic tank effluent spewing nitrogen (N) into the ground water...migrating through the aquifer to the coast and inland?the problems still persist. Ask any of those who sight fish what happens when we get a good long rain.

    And Red Tides occur more often, caused by high nutrient levels in the water column. Outflows from the St. Johns River reach all the way to the Space Coast causing blooms up and down the Atlantic, persisting for weeks.

    Outbreaks of epiphytic algae overgrow the blades of grass and starve light needed for the seagrasses to grow. Epiphyte veneer is common now where you still find grass and will continue until nutrient levels in the water column are reduced to natural levels. Nutrient concentrations are so high that often in the rainy season, large phytoplankton and macroalgae bloom occurrences are common and further attenuate light needed by natural seagrasses. Run-off also alters salinity levels.

    The only reason I persist is because people like you make a complex issue more difficult to explain. Your mis-information clouds the true issues and makes progress on these most critical problems more difficult. When nutrient levels are reduced, then maybe it would be safe to eliminate some of the impoundments, but mostly not now, nor in the near future.

    As for the Everglades, outflows from STAs are still well over 90PPB P in good weather; the TMDL is 10PPB. Inflows to Lake O were in excess of 750 metric tons of P so far this year when the TMDL is 105 metric tons. If you were to open up the impoundments, you would completely destroy what native habitat is left in the Everglades and also take out the remaining coral reefs as well. Such ideas are dangerous and irresponsible to suggest.

    Hitch
     

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