Obeying the law

Discussion in 'Christian Forum' started by Davy Hunt, Jan 30, 2006.

  1. silvermallard

    silvermallard Elite Refuge Member

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    Yes, onionhead, we actually agree. Like you said, "...a fine line..." In reality, what is demanded of Christians is all-consuming...holistic. The law was technical...perfunctory. But the NT is clear that there is much greater liberty under the New Covenant, and that each man is responsible unto his conscience...led by the Holy Spirit.

    I disagree with your analysis of sexual sin. Obviously, some sin is more detrimental to us here on Earth than others, but God sees it all the same way and so should we.
     
  2. onionhead

    onionhead Elite Refuge Member Sponsor

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    excellent interpretation of "believeth" as in "whosoever believeth" and "call" as in "whosoever shall call" IMO

    And never ever intended to save .... "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" .... "for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

    it is the NT testimony that the OT saints were/are/will be "saved" in the same way that ALL others will be/are/were "saved" -

    NOT by the law - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight

    NOT by animal sacrafice - For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins

    BUT by faith ... for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness ... just like today -faith reckoned for righteousness

    A better covenant no doubt but more liberty ??? "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." ..... Psalm 51 "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."

    Hmmmmm .... "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." ..... Jesus said "the greater sin"
     
  3. silvermallard

    silvermallard Elite Refuge Member

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    Put in today's terms, Jesus words could easily be stated thusly, "The guy that turned me over to you is more wicked than you are." A person can be more sinful than another, no doubt. We all sin, but some are wicked/evil. But sin, in the abstract, is sin...period. This was a major theme of Jesus' teachings. To quote him out of context like that does him a disservice.

    Let us not forget that Jesus intervened in the stoning of the woman taken in adultery, had compassion on her, stopped her punishment, and forgave her. But he sat down, made a whip, and ran the merchants and money-changers out of the temple himself. And he even rebuked the disciples harshly for their lack of faith when they woke him at sea in fear of the storm.
     
  4. onionhead

    onionhead Elite Refuge Member Sponsor

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    Jesus could have said anything He wanted to, but the Bible records ... "therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin" ... the explanation Christ gives makes degree obvious.

    So what's the criteria, the number of sins or the degree or both? As you say one can be a greater siiner than another, just like "greater sinners" there are "gretaer sins"

    You mean like a persons who sometimes finds fault with his brother or a person that in the name of a false god straps bombs to the backs of children for the sole purpose of murdering others ?? - no degree ???

    Major theme???

    There is no "context" issue here, but a re-writing of scripture. To substitute what Jesus could have said for what He did say is the disservice here, a fault of many modern translations and translators.

    Neither of these references have anything to do with teachings on degree, which, if left alone in translation, is the clear teaching of scripture. How about this one .....

    And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had. Luke 21 ...... Here Christ Jesus again teaches degree, this time in "doing good" as opposed to "doing evil" as He did concerning Pilate.
     
  5. silvermallard

    silvermallard Elite Refuge Member

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    When I read scripture, the NT clearly teaches that there is only one sin "greater" than any other. That is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. For this, there is no forgiveness...obviously. If you take the teachings and actions of Christ in their entirety, you cannot conclude that he viewed sexual sin as more serious than, for example, hypocrisy, unbelief, deception, a judgmental/haughty spirit, or a host of others. Therefore, if it is our goal to be like Christ, I fail to see how one can hold the position that sexual sin is greater than any of these.
     
  6. onionhead

    onionhead Elite Refuge Member Sponsor

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    Besides ...."Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." which clearly states "greater sin", how about .....If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. ..... sin not unto death and sin unto death, degree of the consequences certainly affirms degree of the sin

    AMEN

    I'm sure that you would include Romans in your "teachings and actions of Christ in their entirety" umbrella so ......

    Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


    When God gave them up did they become what pleased Him ?? No, they become what was uttterly contemptable to Him. They "changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator" and for "this cause" did HE give them over to hypocrisy, unbelief, deception, a judgmental/haughty spirit(your list)???, NO, for what they did, "for this cause", He gave them over to homosexual perversion as clearly described by the Scripture.

    "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body", 1 Corinthians clearly sets sexual sin apart from "Every sin that a man doeth", its too plain too miss. Romans 1 teaches the utter contempt God places on sexual sin in that those who "changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator" and were consequently given up were, given up unto vile affections, to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies, their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature, men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly
     
  7. silvermallard

    silvermallard Elite Refuge Member

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    I'm fully aware of the passages you quote. And I'm not going to get into a cut-n-paste concordance war with you here. For every verse you can find highlighting sexual sin, I can find ten that highlight attitudinal sins. God finds all sin detestible and abhorrent. I don't look first to the lives or teachings of the apostles...mere men...for examples of how to lead my life. I look to the example of Jesus that they recorded. For they themselves often missed his points and scripture records them making many mistakes. But not Christ. So, I look to HIS example first and foremost, especially if there seems to be a contradiction/conflict. Christ didn't chase the woman at the well with a whip. But he sure did the merchants and money-changers in the temple. Christ didn't spend 3 1/2 years chastising the Jews for their sexual immorality. He spent 3 1/2 years chastising them for their legalistic hardheartedness, lack of faith, and hypocrisy.

    The goal of Christianity...even according to the apostles ;)...is to be like CHRIST. Not to be like THEM.
     
  8. onionhead

    onionhead Elite Refuge Member Sponsor

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    ..... OK
     

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