same arguement, same type of thread, the ping pong match continues, whenever someone asks you for scriptural proof you revert the same arguement, see above. but you are unable to defend your position, AND WE FALL for it, shame on us... still waiting for the response to my question... no loopholes, born of water, physical, this excludes angels, both holy and evil, because they haven never been born. they are. spiritual, infilling of the holy spirit, just as the theif on the cross was. game, set and match.