Primer substitution caution

Discussion in 'Shooting - Reloading Forum' started by sheboyganjohn, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. sheboyganjohn

    sheboyganjohn New Member

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    I just wanted to share some results I just got back from pressure testing. I have a bunch of Federal tactical buckshot hulls that I wanted to develop a recipe for. They have a ton of room and appear to have a similar base wad to the 3" federal .090 basewad hulls. I sent in a load of 37 grains of powder and 1 1/8" of #3 with CSD 1 1/8 wad. I was trying to recreate a 3" load in a 2 3/4 hull. I sent in 2 sets to test. The only difference was one set had federal 209A primers the other had Cheddite primer. I had put the primers in first then reloaded both sets with powder, shot, and crimp all at once. They were both over pressure, but the 209A took it way over.

    The average results were:
    209A primer 1669 fps at 16116 psi.
    Cheddite primer 1629 fps at 13352 psi.

    Since I have all 3 1/2" guns I am going to back down a bit on the cheddite primer load to get it a little lower on pressure and see how it patterns.

    So the moral of the story, be very careful with primer swapping, it can push you over pressure in a hurry.
     
  2. 10GAGENUT

    10GAGENUT Elite Refuge Member Flyway Manager

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    I guess my question would be why would you try and use 37 grains of I am assuming STEEL powder in a 2 3/4 " load when every loading manual out there uses no more than 34 grains of STEEL with any 1 1/8 oz load. Usually it's 29 to 32 grains of STEEL powder in the average 2 3/4" 1 1/8 oz load. Then to top it off you use the hottest primer on the market(Federal 209A) in a load with to much powder in it to start with, your not experimenting your being reckless to say the least.
     
  3. sheboyganjohn

    sheboyganjohn New Member

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    No, reckless is loading it up and shooting it, experimenting is loading it up and sending it out to a pressure testing lab.

    In the Status of Steel manual I have there is a 3" Federal hull loaded with 39 grains of STEEL, 209A primer with a gas check then a CSD118 with 1 1/8 ounce shot. I know that one is over power just looking at it, but I used it as a starting point. I have not dug around to see how may other I could find listed with similar payload/ powder charge but I know there are a few more.

    As I stated I was trying to fit a 3" load in a 2 3/4 shell. I have found the biggest limiting factor in the 2 3/4 shell is the room to fit everything. With the large volume of the buckshot hull, I was trying to find a load that would utilize the available space. I decided to push it to the max which would allow me to work backwards in development, knowing what the upper limit produce.

    On here and many other sites I have seen people subbing primers around with no real data to back it up. Since I was already sending in a load for testing (my actual load was using the cheddite primer) I wanted to see how much additional pressure would be produced by subbing in a much hotter primer, the 209A. If pressure to powder weight was a linear scale, which I am fairly certain it is not, this would mean loads that are at 10500 with 32 grain of STEEL and a cheddite primer would be pushing 13500 with the 209A. If anything I wanted to provide real data as to why you need to be careful subbing components.
     
  4. 10GAGENUT

    10GAGENUT Elite Refuge Member Flyway Manager

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    There are formulas you can use to estimate the pressure when you start adding more powder to a given load knowing an operating pressure to start with. I came up with 12,860 psi with the additional powder you added to the load using a known recipe and pressure, so I wasn't that far off from the actual test pressure. You have to remember also there's other people who read this forum and somebody might get the idea to try shooting one of the loads you made up, that's what I was getting at by being reckless.
     
  5. sheboyganjohn

    sheboyganjohn New Member

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    Got ya. I just realized that I did not state in a very obvious way that the testing showed they were way over max pressure. I will go back and edit my first post.
     
  6. sheboyganjohn

    sheboyganjohn New Member

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    OK maybe I won't. I don't see the option to edit the starting post in a thread. If a Mod can edit it could you please add the following as the first paragraph:

    The following loads were developed for pressure testing, not firing from any firearm, and resulted in pressures way over SAAMI max limits. The maximum allowable average pressure for 2 3/4 12 gauge loads is 11,500 psi. The following information was provided to show the results of pressure testing, not to give actual load data. DO NOT CREATE ANY LOADS BASED ON THE FOLLOWING EXPERIMENTAL DATA. IT IS NOT SAFE.
     
  7. seanymphO

    seanymphO Senior Refuge Member

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    My data shows their is a big difference in the temp of those two primers .The fed is much hotter !
     
  8. theduckguru

    theduckguru Elite Refuge Member

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    Not only does that hull exhibit very high pressure tendency due to minimal base wad, the pressure curve is straight up. Even in the 3" hull with that base, 37 grains is nuts with 1-1/8 oz.
     
  9. sheboyganjohn

    sheboyganjohn New Member

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    I know the fed is one of the hottest on the market, but I have not seen any true comparison between the two, outside of trying to compare recipes in various manuals. That is why I sent in a set with the fed primers to get some data that shows the affect of primer swapping in an identical load.

    I also find it interesting that I constantly see on the boards across the internet, follow published data only, but I have published data from BPI that puts 39 grains in a 3" fed hull, fed primer, and 1 1/8 shot. I know that someone will state that BPI has some bad recipes and only follow the good ones. But how is a new reloader supposed to know what are the good ones.

    I think it is helpful to publish test results even when they are way over pressure, or in other ways not what we want, so people that are still new to reloading can learn. Showing recipes with xxx for the powder charge and stating it was over pressure does not teach anything. Same thing with posting wildcat recipes that "shoot and pattern great" but have never been pressure tested also teaches people that wildcatting without testing is fine. I am not pointing these comments at anyone particular nor am I pointing them at this forum. I am making a blanket statement of what I find when researching steel reloading across a number of reputable sites.
     
  10. JohnBZ

    JohnBZ Elite Refuge Member

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    Don't take it too hard, the internet is full of ornery old codgers. I used to wildcat slug loads with an overbuilt bull barrelled/hardened receiver gun and post without specifics on shotgunworld. I only put powder charges in print when it was published data never on anything I developed because I didn't pressure test most loads. I was deliberately exceeding sammi max because the gun could handle it and I worked with slow powders unlikey to go overpressure for my particular gun. The number of nasty private messages I got was almost entertaining. Truth is that anyone looking for a reason to load up that hot is going to do it. You stated its over pressure. I say thanks for posting real results. Let us know if you get it to a safe point. Developing a load is indeed serious business and risky. But so is reloading in general. There is tons of bad data floating around merely due to changes in lot numbers of powder with no warnings written anywhere. It is very rewarding when it clicks together. Good luck and keep at it !
     
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