Redtail Hawks #1 upland enemy!!!!!

Discussion in 'Upland Game Forum' started by duckmaster56, Mar 23, 2002.

  1. Thorn

    Thorn Guest

    Yeallardawg, Glad to see that someone could pick up all the clues in my Bio, Sometimes to make a point you have to pay the piper. I was fined $1000 dollars, given 6 months to pay.. but no court costs. I represented myself and spent less than $2000 on the whole thing.

    When your in business for yourself you have to make business decisions all the time. I don't have the luxury of keeping my job if I'm wrong as do government employees, INS or FWS as examples. People in private business are always accountable so getting fined is the way it is.

    The only reason that I got on this web page was because one of my club members gave me a heads up. Since this has happened I have been in contact with hunters from Neb., Iowa., SD., Ind., Wis., Minn., Md., Mo., Wy., Fla., Pa., Mich., Ky., Ga., NY., Ks., WVA., Del., NJ., Cal., Az., and other states I'm sure that I can't pull off the top of my head as of now. I've talked to many lawyers, gamewardens, wildlife managers, but more important to me, many rank and file hunters, I had no idea how widspread among hunters hawks and to some extent owls were hated. I have had plenty of wildlife officers and biologists tell me they know how much a threat to small game hawks and owls are and how sick they are that PC keeps their organizations from admitting it. You may state anything to the contrary here on this web page but if you work for the FWS or a state agency you know I'm right.

    I have not lost one customer or club member because of this. If you would take the time to get the trial transcript from the Toledo Court you would get the whole story, The Blade's writer never asked me one question or spoke to me at all.

    The judge and the federal prosecutor were extremely nice and professional. I sure as hell hated to pay for protecting my property on my own land, but I'm not fond of all the taxes I have to pay either. My fight with Hawks is alot about money and my rights under the constitution, the side product of this has been how other hunters, land owners, farmers, neighbors and strangers have voiced their support for me.

    I do not expect to change the minds of those who have made the rules but to let the many others who realize that hawks are a problem that they aren't alone. As someone who has dealt with wildlife officials most of my adult life I know what I'm saying. I'm not going to detail all those dealings here but the sleuths can find them, there in the record. Look to the East.

    I never put any saying at the bottom of my posts but maybe this one could be. Kids say No to Drugs, Smoke a Hawk instead of Pot.
    Bye.






























































    fws
     
  2. silvermallard

    silvermallard Elite Refuge Member

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    Hawaii
    Thorn, wow! Some of my assumptions about you were wrong. Yet another example of what happens when you assume things! ;)

    You obviously have a lot of experience in these matters. That's where I was wrong. But I was not wrong about you being a poacher...you're even a CONVICTED poacher. And experienced enough to have known better. Federal law ALWAYS supercedes state law.

    I know that several of the guys on here do, in fact, work for federal and/or state wildlife agencies, and they've disagreed with your assertions on this thread. I deal with Feds and state folks constantly...in the same capacity that you do, and as an activist and consultant. I think your characterization that most agree with your position is very inaccurate and intentionally misleading.

    I've got nothing against you campaigning to change the law, but I could never respect anyone who knowingly violates game and predator laws. I have never found it necessary to shoot a raptor, but having that option available would not bother me, either. But I stand by my previous assertion: if you open up a raptor "season" and such, there will be NO control over them. You'll have a free-for-all eradication campaign. That could devastate populations, resulting in widespread proliferation of nest predators and the resultant decrease in game species propagation. I do not support the idea of anyone with a hunting license, or a few birds in a coop being able to shoot/trap them at will. Where you and I might see eye-to-eye is on the issue of licensed gamebird farms being able to shoot/trap them within the confines of their own property and under competent, professional oversight. Where I think your argument would have merit would be if you stated it something like this:

    If a rancher in Montana can kill wolves that are killing his livestock, then why can't I kill hawks that are killing mine?

    This is a question worthy of legal debate.
     
  3. JKR

    JKR Guest

    Thorn,

    I just wanted to drop a note and tell you that many ranchers I’ve spoke to as well as myself feel very much the way you do. We too are in the business of hunting (in my case our club has about 90 ranches …600K acres). To let ANY predator remove game birds (or any game animal) from the property is taking money out of rancher’s pockets. The same people who will complain about the select harvesting of a few problem predators would bitch like hell if they paid thousands of dollars for the privilege of hunting private clubs and predators ate all the birds.

    As far as game laws go it is amazing to me that everyone but the government fish and game guys many times obey these laws. I have watched F+G harvest many many ducks for study using lead shot (the same guys that would fine you for so much as one stray lead shell in the boat rolling around) and that is just the tip of f+g stories.


    I warn all of the hunters in states other than CA to not get off track as to the simple fact that hunters must stick together. I am in process of leaving a state that has so restricted the rights of hunters and gun owners that it is no longer attractive to many many hunters and shooters as a place to live. Anti’s are everywhere. And they will take ground wherever and whenever they can, don’t let your state be next.

    J
     
  4. JKR

    JKR Guest

    Mark,

    I just got off the phone with Cabela’s and I too have ordered some UFO decoys, I choose the Mojo UFO and the 60 pack of Texas rag quails. I have covered my Hay Bale blind with left over tile from the space shuttle as to withstand the extreme heat of the UFO when it comes into shooting range. And my lab now has a full fire suit to protect him while on those blind UFO triples.

    I spoke to F+G and they assured me that we are legal with our federal stamps (don’t want to anger any of activists.)

    I have also managed to get a case of 50 BMG Depleted Uranium rounds (Activists………..also legal due to my FFL) so let me know if you need more penetration on the UFO’s Mark.

    As far as a taxidermist goes I called all the usual ones and none are equipped to mount ufo’s Most have pointed out that maybe due to the space age materials they will last a lifetime without spoiling.

    I sent you a PM regarding booking a bigfoot hunt…..I want the deluxe package with a bigfoot and Yeti combo…….I want to make sure that you don’t hunt these bigfoot with bait as that would not be legal under federal law (sorry activists still no joy)

    Keep me posted on the UFO success rate

    Keep watching the skies

    J
     
  5. ashes

    ashes Senior Refuge Member

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    Location:
    kentucky
    I still don't agree with the idea of Thorn being able to shoot hawks and owls on his preserve. Thorn is running a shooting preserve where he charges membership dues, etc. okay, so thorn buys a pheasant for say $7/bird and sets them out for paying hunters at a rate of probably $18/bird. when these birds are set out they are already paid for, so if a hunter pays for 3 birds and only kills 2, the one left is surplus. so if any predator takes this bird, thorn looses no money, right? therefore, the predators are not affecting his income. plus probably charging nice fees for guided hunts using his dogs, thorn is not loosing money by predators taking his pheasants. any other shooting preserve I have been in contact with, has no great hatred for hawks like thorn does. they may release 300 birds one day and only 200 of which are taken, I don't hear them crying wolf because they see hawks around their property, they don't care, they know they have made their money from those birds. so in my opinion, a preserve operator/owner may not harvest hawks or owls on his property. fight for what you want but you have not a snow ball's chance in hell.
     
  6. JKR

    JKR Guest

    Ashes,

    If it were only that simple...........how much feed do you think that 7$ bird eats...............plus flight pens plus land and ins. and a lodge and guides and dog purchase and training and keep .

    and that assumes all birds are live and never wounded by poor shooters or hurt by pedators or grabbed by the customers unsteady dog.

    If an opperator runs a wind up chicken farm that kept birds ready for their maiden flight and never had to store them and could always sell the perfect amount of birds that may be true.......but that isn't the way it works in the world of a high end private club with great flying birds.

    Point is that on private land where a threat to income exists there should be no reason why raptors can't be shot....just like wolves and coyotes and coons and bla bla bla

    J
     
  7. silvermallard

    silvermallard Elite Refuge Member

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    Ashes...some preserves still stock day-old chicks in the Spring, and pursue a free-range mgmt. policy thru habitat mgmt. and predator control. In my opinion, the BEST do it this way. Some preserves still charge on the bag vs. the release. In either of these business models, you argument is invalid. Besides, even the common pay-on-release set-up, a good business plan will include additional reduced-fee "clean-up" hunts, dog training days, etc. to use up their "extra" birds. These methods provide additional revenue to the business. Thus, a guy would still be losing revenue due to predation. One could also argue the intangible/potential revenue from reputation, etc. is at stake...but that cuts both ways. But the bottom line is that if I want to put out 1000 birds at $7 ea. just to watch them run and fly around my property, that is my business. I could be charging trespass fees to bird watchers or some such nonsense. No matter what, these birds are MY LIVESTOCK. There are implied and expressed constitutional rights to protect my property involved.

    I ain't arguing "for" or "against." I'm just pointing out some of the details.
     
  8. wdlfbio

    wdlfbio Elite Refuge Member

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    Maple Valley, WA
    Thorn,
    A quick question...
    Did you first contact the USFWS seeking a Depredation Permit? What was their response?
     
  9. Mark

    Mark Senior Refuge Member

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    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Oh Maw Gawd!

    Them Haydell boys know how to make a call!!! I had flocks of UFOs all around me, it was insane. I am the UFO Commander. I am going to be releasing a video soon called "In yo Face UFOs, UFOholic style." IT will be great! I harvested sever bull UFOs in full plumange. I need to get a tractor trailer to haul em home. The little apple heads things will look great mounted around my house. I have an idea to have a mount of this alian comming out of a wall and when you go to the other side his feet/flipper thingiys will be stick out. Oh man this was the best hunt ever.

    I set up just like I told you, and started in on the hight ball and feed chuckel. Man they came in by the droves I just pounded em. All you could hear was the sound of wind cutting the air. One of the UFOs even landed and tried to suck up the quail decoys. That UFO was very odd. It had like a spoon shape to it, as oppsed to the typical pie or cigar shaped UFOs I had been harvesting. It really smelled bad when maw dawg retrieved it to me.

    I harvested a legal limt of UFOs and will be back out tonight!!!

    Watching the skys, the truth is out there.

    Mark.

    PS Jay now is the time for a combo Bigfoot/Yetti hunt. They are in full plumage right now. I am going to get the Yetti permits and travel arangements all in line. You can bait Yettis, but not bigfoots. Yetties are in Asia and not subject to Califorina/Federal harvesting laws.
     
  10. ashes

    ashes Senior Refuge Member

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    but the problem still arises....Thorn not only wants to shoot raptors on his land, he wants everyone to be able to kill em nation wide. that is what he is pushing for. if we allow this to even begin, we are just adding fuel to the fire. thorn has no idea about proper wildlife mgt techniques or wildlife research, all he sees is raptors taking his pheasants, and he thinks he can justify the killing of them. I don't think thorn has a case with this and I will never support this. I just can't justify the killing of any native species for the propagation of a non-native one. Thorn-so just how much money do you loose per year to raptors compared to foxes, coyotes, weather, etc? You have no dang idea, because all you see are several hawks take a couple of your birds, and you never even think about other forms of mortality.
     

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