Shells

Discussion in 'California Flyway Forum' started by Nocalhonker, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. blackdog58

    blackdog58 Elite Refuge Member

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    Back when steel first came out, and factory loads were horrible, I reloaded a 1oz 1400fps shell using sr4756. A really good load that probably converted a least 10 guys to reloading. That was a bad time, factory load wise. I have a favorite load that I've shot consistently for the last 6-7 years. I'll try something at times, more curiosity then anything. But I know what works with me. Kent makes a fine load.
     
  2. Nocalhonker

    Nocalhonker Elite Refuge Member

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    I remember those days a few years after steel came out I started reloading a 23/4" 1oz load of 2's at 1475 fps. I was guiding and shooting clean up seemed like everyday someone would ask what the heck I was shoot.
     
  3. craig wilson

    craig wilson Elite Refuge Member

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    Alright, you guy's are gonna screw me up. I'm sticking with what I've been doing.......LOL
     
  4. Refugeguy

    Refugeguy Senior Refuge Member

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    Some serious thoughts on this stuff . 3-4 cases a yr of fed premiums work fine . Pattern good on birds on the water . BBs and 2s. Old lady shoots blue box fed 3s 2 cases a yr. kills more than half my friends. I keep
    It simple
     
  5. Big Daddy Gaddy

    Big Daddy Gaddy Elite Refuge Member

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    That should be at least 600 birds a year for the two of you. That's a lot of days hunting.
     
  6. Refugeguy

    Refugeguy Senior Refuge Member

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    Little under that . Can't kill em from the couch rite . Throw in 4 shooting kids ! Lots of duck jerky
     
  7. sisqsprig

    sisqsprig Senior Refuge Member

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    I was with this until he gets to the part about shot deformation. That may have been true with lead but it's not true of steel. Steel will not deform noticeably under normal velocities, hence one of the reasons it patterns tighter (then lead) to begin with. Then he really lost me when he said a slow load will catch up to a fast load at 40-50 yds. No law in earthly physics will allow for a slow load to overtake a faster load (shot size being equal). In actuality the greater the distance the farther ahead the fast load will be.
     
  8. Calikev

    Calikev Elite Refuge Member

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    He didn't say it would overtake the load. He said it would catch up with the load. That is entirely different. Many top shooters would agree there is very little benefit to exceeding 1350 fps with steel shot. You might see a cut down in your lead at shorter distances but in both cases between a 1350 fps load and 1600 fps load you have enough energy at those distances to dispatch birds cleanly. The longer downrange effect is negotiable as the faster load has slowed down to that point so there is really no additional benefit except that extra recoil you are taking on to accommodate that load.

    Here's Tom Rosters opinion:

    This is not true of balls. If two balls of the same shape and mass are started with one ball having a 150 fps greater instrumental velocity over the other ball, unfortunately at 40 yards, for example, the 150 fps initially faster ball will have shed the majority of the 150 fps velocity and momentum muzzle differential advantage over the slower ball.

    Why is this true? The answer is that with balls the greater the velocity at which a ball is initially launched, the greater the rate at which it loses velocity. This is due to the poor aerodynamic shape of balls. The net effect of increasing the initial launch velocity of balls is that greater air resistance is created ahead of them. They are forced, therefore, to slow down more rapidly than balls launched at slower initial velocities. Since shotshell pellets are largely ball-shaped, this inescapable law of physics hugely inhibits the value of high velocity for shotshell loads.

    If you doubt this irrefutable law of physics, simply consult any downrange ballistics table for any shot type – lead, steel, bismuth, whatever. You will see that any increase in velocity and retained energy which exists at the muzzle between a faster launched ball versus a slower one degenerates exponentially over distance. For example, at 60 yards the majority of the differential enjoyed by the faster-launched ball at the muzzle will be virtually gone.

    Is it, therefore, spurious to load high velocity steel loads? Consider the facts and then you decide. First, we now know that any higher launch velocity and per-pellet retained energy at the muzzle are rapidly being lost with distance. Second, with increased velocity comes greatly increased levels of recoil. Third, because of the poor aerodynamic shape of shotshell pellets – even very spherical ones – a little pattern testing quickly reveals that the patterns of high velocity shotshell loads – regardless of metal type – are seldom as good as the patterns of lower velocity shotshell loads. Fourth, to achieve higher and higher velocities in shotshell loads, shot charge weights have to be reduced to keep pressure levels from exceeding the current maximum allowable pressure limits. So high velocity loads generally also have smaller payloads than standard velocity loads.

    On the positive side there is one possible plus. Depending upon an individual’s shooting style, 100 to 200 fps higher initial launch velocities can alter some individuals’ “leads.” Some hunters experience increased hitting success while others experience decreased initial hitting success with higher velocity loadings. You won’t know until you try them.

    My decades of lethality testing of lead and nontoxic shotshell loads for taking waterfowl and upland game birds have revealed the science-based reality that with lead and nontoxic tungsten-composite pellet hunting loads possessing lead shot equivalent pellet densities, all you need for effective (spelled: lethal) velocity is something near 1250 fps ± 50 fps. For steel loads, all that is needed is something near 1350 fps ± 50 fps. Launch velocities in excess of these benchmarks have not proven to increase lethality, but do help some shooters with their leads and thus hitting success.

    So, one has to be quite conservative in selecting a high velocity shotshell load, or there is very little practical benefit. In fact, the benefit can become largely psychological. This is especially true if the shotgunner remains ignorant of the irrefutable laws of the physics of balls, never takes the time to pattern test his or her ammunition, and ignores the erosive effects on one’s shooting success caused by the ever higher recoil levels of higher and higher velocity shotshell loadings.
     
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  9. Ravenanme

    Ravenanme Elite Refuge Member

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    At the distances we shoot Waterfowl , Steel Shot has become about the perfect pellet material ! We now can push it a lot faster than before with the
    QC of the pellets but the NEW powders that have come along way to allow this . With some Ballistic Experts saying 1500 fps is optimum for steel shot
    the industry is still trying for more speed (Marketing BS) . At 1500 fps one can drop to a size pellet that will give more pattern density than what's really
    needed to harvest a duck size bird inside 45 yds so , what more can a hunter ask for ?
     
  10. sisqsprig

    sisqsprig Senior Refuge Member

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    that's all well and good but once the fast ball reaches the same speed at which the slow ball is "pitched" the forces of physics will act equally. So...the fast ball may slow down rather quickly to the velocity of the slow ball but at that point the air resistance on the two balls is identical. The slow ball will not catch up to the fast ball because of the head start the fast ball got, no matter how small that head start is. And if it did it would by definition be traveling faster than the fast ball at that point and so that would continue and it would eventually overtake it. If you are saying that catch and overtake are very different then what prevents the slow ball from overtaking the fast? If his explanation is correct then there would be no difference in distance covered or time taken between a fast ball and slow ball. You're a baseball fan, I think? would you rather have your center fielder try to throw out a guy trying to stretch a single into a double by throwing the ball to second base fast or slow? By his example both balls would get there at the same time. In his example a muzzleloader shooting round balls would shoot the same out past a certain distance irrespective if the gun was loaded with 50 grains of powder or 150 grains of powder.
     

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