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The dollar wins again.

Discussion in 'Idaho Flyway Forum' started by Toothshucker1, May 26, 2008.

  1. Toothshucker1

    Toothshucker1 Senior Refuge Member

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    Idaho
    First WaterfowlFool:
    You make some great points, I learned much the same way you did. I think part of the problem is that we in the west don't want the headaches you have, and if somebody from the east coast comes here and makes an ad in our back yard it's feels a little rude. That guy reaps benefits, in my opinion the locals that hunt there get the shaft. We are going to have the same problems you have soon enough without professional help.

    That being said, upon some reflection, I think I probably have been a little harsh on quides. Jeff is doing his dream. I just worry that as more and more guys decide to pursue that dream, that were will be less and less available to everyday hunters (by that I mean someone who isn't paying a guide). Maybe all serious duckhunters should be guides and pack around clients (I think that would be a disaster). Have I wanted to do guided trips, sure. For the first time in my life I feel like I could without detracting from my families financial future. For a long time it wasn't even on the radar. Maybe in the future I will do a guided hunt, we'll see. I have at least one good friend who is about to enter the guiding foray, hes got a lot of talent and enthusiasm, this has been what he's wanted to for a long time. In spite of my concerns I would like to see him succeed, he's a great guy and someone I hope to hunt with for a long time (may not if he gets too busy). Guiding really was never intended to be the focus of this thread and I'm just as guilty (or more) than anyone for letting it stray. I apologize to Jeff for any inappropriate criticism. I admit that as things stand now, maybe I'm out of line on that, we'll see how it plays out over time. I am not going to touch the guide issue anymore, other than to continue to applaud Idaho duck hunters for being adamantly against it, that makes this state truly unique.

    I appreciate what your saying. I can't say I'm completely convinced that some areas of commercial enterprise won't eventually damage the sport. But I think enough good arguments have been made that I will watch carefully, reserve some judgement. Perhaps someday I'll take a guided hunt and see what it's like. If you're out this way some time let me know and we can meet and talk, have a beer, and who knows maybe shoot a duck or so. The same goes for Jeff. I wouldn't even have a problem with the cameras so long as it didn't end up on the screen on my TV or computer.


    BandMan:

    Although it has been hit here and there, the intent was never to discuss whether people should be able to hunt out of state. They can, I will, it's legal. Yes, occasionally feathers get ruffled. Mine do just about every time I see a CA or NV plate at the ramp, at least momentarily. It was more to voice concern that commercial film, that are essentially advertising someone's product, are leading to increases in pressure from out of state (or in state if you want) that wouldn't necessarily exist without their presence. So if have led you down an unintended path, my bad. Also, again, I don't really have a problem with filming on private ground for commercial stuff. I personally feel that it's a different animal. Public ground is a special thing, accessible to all, but too much all at once is not a good thing.

    Salthunter:

    I'm pretty sure that companies that manufacture products have a great variety of ways they can advertise their product. Honestly, I think the internet sells more gear than anything. I'm not knocking guys making calls, boats, whatever, I love 'em. When I bought my GT and MB setup last year it's because of a lot of net research. I think they would sell plenty even without the vids. For MB and GT (and I'm not a prostaffer with anyone fellas) I can tell that their product and service sell itself. Word of mouth still carries a lot of weight.



    For those who continue to want to ridicule the post as the best advertising in the world (and maybe just in fun). I agree the internet is twice as bad, get's more exposure. But given the intended focus on this thread is a concern to people in our state and other states, I feel it would be an error to not discuss this issue. Maybe there is nothing to do about, we'll just have to hope for the best. I doubt those with vested interest would ever admit culpability, but if they are the ambassadeurs of the sport that they are often portrayed as, maybe they would self regulate or consider some way of a s. In fairness, I'm not sure how to best go about measuring the real impact of these films. I only have my experience to go on. My intent is not to advertise but to engage. It's clear that local organization's don't feel that it's a fight that winnable or appropriate, and perhaps they're correct. Maybe a cooperative understanding, unwritten, between those that have financial interests and those who don't is all that is needed. A sort of gentlemans agreement. I believe that Jeff is honest when he says that he believes that these videos are about sharing information with others, but I just don't see how the locals here in Idaho are going to benefit. I think anybody making the films, in the end, whether they admit or not, understand that their videos can impact where hunters go. Most likely Jeff was hoping for Bel Air, MD, and so am I.
     
  2. Pitboss

    Pitboss Elite Refuge Member Sponsor Flyway Manager

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    Chris... this is some of my reply to you in the other thread:

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    we all have our opinions and they are just that... nothing wrong with some good debate and conversation right?


    here's two examples of what the MDWFA was able to do, help change:

    1st - Maryland's Regulations for open water gunning, sea ducking, license private shoreline, gunning public water, body booting, etc... were "all over the place" as far as having them complied into one "reading'... also they were very very confusing!

    the MDWFA took the insinuative and had things changed, the results: A Guide to Maryland’s Laws and Regulations Related to Offshore Waterfowl Hunting

    although still lots of reading, now it is all in one place easy to find and hopefully easier to understand.

    2nd- the MDWFA went to the Annapolis state house, Maryland's Capital, and were able to get the minimum distance from shoreline on the Susquehanna Flats from 800yds back to 400yds. although the Maryland DNR (dept. of natural resources) was in favor, it was the MDWFA that got things changed.

    the next year i went with them to testify before the house sub committee for the same change from 800yds to 400yds in two other upper bay counties. i gun the lower bay so these changes did nothing for me.



    anyway my point? step up and see if the changes you want to see can be made!

    good luck,

    jeff

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    alittle about what i do as well as many other guides do here in Maryland and on the Chesapeake... Bel Air is in Harford County were many do guide but everything i do is on Maryland's lower Eastern Shore, from Cambridge to Ocean City, again were many other guides to also.

    do you not thing i promote my areas and the birds we shoot here? do a "Pitboss" search here on the fuge and see how many thousands i've posted up since the year 2000?

    short videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOfp9i05x50

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWMCQg2qKVU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdOm4ckikv8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5-weNWGQ_o

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGtmMOenmi0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlZB4JhemyA

    and there are many many more on you tube easy for the world to find...

    if your from here how can you possible not know were i go?
    i'm out and about 90-100 days a season, have you seen my truck? i'm a "bill board", how could you not know it's me use that ramp?



    [​IMG]


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    i'm not complaining about promoting the areas, spots and ramps i use am i? guess you don't really know yes or no but i keep taking pictures, keep posting videos and my rig still has my name on it!
    if people here know i seaduck, see me at a ramp, wouldn't you think they are smart enough to figure out i must be close by?

    where are the guys here in Maryland complaining about what i do?



    Louisiana? we hunted there, filmed it, i took pictures, had great hunts, posted up about them, it will be in "Ducks, Dogs & Decoys... On the Road!"...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2Tg5myPNtg


    where is all the "complaining" about this trip?




    Washington? same thing there... i took more pictures and video there with the Otto Brothers than anyplace else, i even went back in April just to hang out and take more pictures, those double bands brant are all over the net, no secrets...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR4dfti3Rgc





    [​IMG]


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    also went and did the same thing in Utah... Travis of Bullock Outdoors has an entire forum just for his state, i post there and they all post there too about the hunting they all do!


    anyway my point... i just didn't start this yesterday, have been posting pictures for years, so far back when the only thing ducks & geese you could find online was SPAV or Hoosier Jim's!

    i still don't understand why duck & goose hunting is so competitive? and why the "i got mine" and or "not in my back yard" attitudes are so strong.

    my opinion,

    jeff
     
  3. Toothshucker1

    Toothshucker1 Senior Refuge Member

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    Location:
    Idaho
    I understand what you are saying. But, your business requires in a way to advertise where you hunt. So I would expect that your videos show where you are. I can't say why non-commercial hunters aren't upset. I have no idea what the mindset and situation there are. You don't guide here in Idaho, only a handful of people are grandfathered into that. I hope it stays that way. So I guess my point is that no matter that you may not have intended an ill effect, it can become a problem for us that hunt here all the time, and call us crazy but some of us believe it will. I don't feel the guys blabbing about their hunts and throwing pics all over the place is smart either, but it's not ending up on a rack in the store (granted some of it is free advertising for some). They're slitting their own throats and unfortunately other's as well. As I've said I can't speak for guys in Washington, most of the posts Ive seen there suggest that those guys OK with this situation know you. They can feel free to chime in here or on their own forum if they wish. They can begin promoting your next tour if they want. That's up to them. I don't pretend to speak for Idaho, I'm just one voice in this state. But others are chiming in.

    I feel the competetiveness comes from a limited resource, access to quality hunting. Its already cutthroat enough on public lands here and everywhere. Some of us feel that we just didn't need one more thing, particularly done with a profit in mind (whether directly from sales of the vid or from increased guided hunts in MD), to potentially make it more difficult. Maybe in the heat of argument months ago and now, we have made you feel unwelcome in Idaho. Not that I control the welcome mat in this state, but if we did come across with that message, we were wrong to do so. I guess we wish it had just remained a hunt with friends and been left at that.

    Your point about involvement is dead on. No question. I'm not questioning every single action you do. As I said above I may be jumping the gun on attacking guiding and its impact on the future of access to waterfowl hunting. Its obvious to me that you are involved and dedicated to the sport we all love. As you say we just differ in opinion on this issue. Does that mean I bear animosity to those that disagree with me. No. I don't believe you do either. I wish you success and good hunting.
     
  4. IdaHowitzer

    IdaHowitzer Elite Refuge Member

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    Location:
    Boise, ID

    Alright, I gotta jump in and say a couple of things. You all may call me crazy, extreme, or whatever, but I see this disturbing trend more and more.

    The way people seem to think these days if they don't like something in society, they scream: "BAN IT", "MAKE A NEW LAW", "TAX IT!", or "SIN TAX IT". I think adding an additional filming fee would be a form of a sin tax.

    People make these suggestions and have these outlandish ideas. I see regulating filming of hunts on public ground as a violation of my First Amendment Right. Go ahead, laugh, but to me it is something I hold dear. I would go as far as saying, the only necessary explanation is
    .

    Would I like to see the public benefit from these filming activities? yes! Do I think they already do? Yes! I have been to a few hunting, conservation and calling seminars put on by some of the 'big boys' and have benefitted greatly. Most of them promote ethical practices and are very nice people.

    I've never seen a hunting video where they said we are putting in at X boat launch and are headed upriver 3.2 miles and are set up on the southwest side of X island. I HAVE however, seen people on here saying, I hunted X location today and here's a picture of my boat on the ramp (sign in background naming location).

    I think that we need to ease off the Kool-Aid and take a big 250,000mg dose of:
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Pitboss

    Pitboss Elite Refuge Member Sponsor Flyway Manager

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  6. Toothshucker1

    Toothshucker1 Senior Refuge Member

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    Glad you could join us. Protection under the bill of rights does not guarantee that reasonable fees cant be levied when its a commercial enterprise, happens all the time. I have no problem with filming for private use. I have an issue with fellas posting up kill photos and advertising areas stupidly. But, I'm not talking about that. Go back and read, COMMERCIAL VIDEOS. Those most definitely can be charged fees.

    Now I hear your a bit of a camera afficianado. Great, I usually have a camera too. Have some great pics at home. That's where they stay. Where are your's going, dont care, if you post them foolishly...well you know my opinion. If you produce a video (something in the works there?) shot on public land and go about selling it, then I think you should pay some sort of reasonable fee. That's my opinion. Now maybe you feel that you should be able to make films, sell them, no matter what the consequence to others using the resource. If that's your opinion so be it.

    Sin tax. This isn't prostitution or alcohol. It's a public resource being used for a commercial gain. There are plenty of instances where special fees are assessed. I hardly see how its outlandish when precedent for these kinds of fees exist already.

    As far as specific locations disclosure. If you go back a bit I think you'll find a recent post where I explain my opinions of how this works. I don't think it matters that it doesn't come with GPS coordinates. Look, don't look, no skin off my back.

    I've been to seminars, festivals, etc., as well. Good stuff. Generally when they are doing this stuff its a little bit of self promotion as well. Granted there are instances when it's not. In those activities I don't get too excited. When some pro staffer is showing you how to blow a goose call, I pretty sure that hes not blowing some other guys call, and there's probably a plug in there for his product. That's fine with me. But just because these guys are nice and can be helpful doesn't mean they should get a free ride on an issue like this.

    You can keep your pill (that's not birth control is it? ;) ). Don't blow a gasket, just for fun!!

    Anyway, I'm out. I'm spending about 5 times the amount of time I usually spend on the computer. If somebody wants to hit me on a specific issue just pm me. I know I haven't explained my feelings well enough to satisfy or persuade everbody (or hell maybe anybody). But it seemed important to me so I said my piece.
     
  7. Excaliber

    Excaliber Elite Refuge Member

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    I can't believe this is still alive.
    I could see if some out of state guys came and shot a video for everyone to see on your super secret mallard slough but we're talking the Snake which is the furthest thing from a secret and they were targeting Goldeneyes.

    Anyone can go hunt Waterfowl anywhere they want and film anything they want. This is not National Forest where you need a permit.

    I'm glad I hunt geese in fields and I don't have to deal with the Snake.
     
  8. baker aka goosenut

    baker aka goosenut Elite Refuge Member

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    Ex now you did it you let the cat out of the bag now everybody will know Idaho haas geese and fields.:l :l
     
  9. IdaHowitzer

    IdaHowitzer Elite Refuge Member

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    In my opinion, filming permits for hunting = BS period AMEN

    Nobody creates a MOVIE SET when they are filming a duck hunt. It goes: set up, hunt, and get out... Very little to no more impact than a regular group of duck hunters.

    These guys aren't bringing multi-million dollar equippment, production specialists, engineers, etc. That's just to many faces to hide, and the ducks don't always go off the script.

    Yes, I do like cameras and I like sharing about my hunts and reading the stories about other people's hunts as well. I often include parts of scenery from my hunts in my posts, sunrises, sunsets, tree-limbs, etc in my posts. I would never give away a location. There are some places I may take a picture of that one may say I hunted X river, but they can guess all they want, they won't be able to tell me where.

    Two days of catfishing in a row makes me tired... I hope I made sense
    Phil
     
  10. ntropy

    ntropy Elite Refuge Member

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    washington
    According to the FWS, there were 278,000 ducks shot in Idaho in 2006 and 167,000 were mallards. The 18,400 duck hunters in the state averaged 15 ducks each during the season. Goldeneyes were about number 5 species on the list, with a record breaking 10,400 birds harvested. Goldeneye are so infrequent in the harvest they are lost in this graph cause they are lumped with "other ducks". [​IMG]

    Idaho hunter numbers have declined over the years but not as much as other Pacific Flyway states.
    [​IMG]

    77,000 Canada geese were harvested in the State also. http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/reports/HuntingStatistics/Migratory%20bird%20hunting%20activity%20and%20harvest%20during%20the%202005%20and%202006%20hunting%20seasons.%20Preliminary%20Estimates.pdf

    To think that hunters are going to flock to Idaho and crowd out your spots because Jeff Coats filmed a DVD, or because Tom Matus carved some decoys, or because Joe Blow posted pictures for the internet scouters on the Refuge Forums is ridiculous. There are only 20,000 members of this Forum covering all of the US and Canada. If you are competing against anyone it is the guys sitting on your left and right at the IWA dinner and not out-of-staters.
     

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