Training question: Force Fetching.

Discussion in 'Gun Dog Forum' started by duckdog112, Jul 6, 2017.

  1. duckdog112

    duckdog112 New Member

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    I had a question on force fetching. I'm trying to teach my dog force fetch and have been working with him for a few days on it. He wants to keep chewing what he is holding. Any advise on how to get him to stop that would be appreciated. thanks!
     
  2. Doc E

    Doc E Elite Refuge Member Sponsor

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    What FF (training) program are you following ?

    .
     
  3. duckdog112

    duckdog112 New Member

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    I've been following Freddy king's training program. I didn't force fetch him when he was younger. he is a year old now and am just starting it. He's trained on marks and has a year of hunting under his belt already. He is holding the things I want him too and giving it when I tell him, he just tends to chew on them. don't know if there are any ways to break that or not? or maybe it will just get better with some age and time training.
     
  4. Doc E

    Doc E Elite Refuge Member Sponsor

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    I would recommend a more tried and proven FF program, such as
    "SmartFetch" by Evan Graham. Evan posts here (Freddie doesn't) and will answer questions concerning his (Carr based) program.

    .
     
  5. duckdog112

    duckdog112 New Member

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    Alrighty sounds good! I appreciate the help, ill look into it.
     
  6. freezeland

    freezeland New Member

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    You need to formally teach the hold command first. I understand you said the dog will hold objects and release when you tell him.

    Hold is the precursor to ear pinch in force fetch. The dog needs to be taught formally to first hold an object without rolling, mouthing, chomping etc.

    After placing bumper in mouth (without ear pinch) command hold, and if dog starts chomping or otherwise mishandles the bumper cup him up under the chin and command hold. When he reliably holds the object without mishandling start doing Obedience drills (on lead). If he drops the bumper (and he will) immediatley put back in the mouth and cup him under the chin and command hold. Once he will do OB drills on lead without mishandling the bumper or dropping it move on to ear pinch.

    Good luck, the advice you received about getting a better traing program was a good suggestion.
     
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  7. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    The FF process is much more effective when one adds another F (letter). The extra F stands for finesse. Most feel
    that the process is based on "making" a pup do things. To a certain extent the making part of it requires teaching and the
    skills of teaching vary.....considerably. A willing "student" is easier to teach. Therefore, it stands to reason a trusting
    relationship between the "teacher and student" is always more effective. So how does one render a "student" more
    trusting? Training should be fun and rewarding. To be perfectly frank "cuffing" a pup under the chin is not rewarding.

    All too often in the early stages of learning, the concept of teaching is forgotten while in its place the idea of making
    corrections takes over. It seems somewhat contrary to correct something that has not been learned. Therefore, the
    first phase should emphasize the idea that a puppy should "really want" that bumper. Starting by "cuffing him around"
    tends to make that less likely.......and "Because I said so" often over-rides teaching.

    To repeat, a responsive pup is easier to teach. There's got to be more to retrieving than simply making it less fun. Wanting
    to vs. being made to do so requires finesse where a sequence is solidified by creating situations where a pup wants to do
    things with you. What's in it for the pup in the way of rewards? Retriever training training is most effective when "everything"
    becomes part of a "big game". Play well and prosper. :h

     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  8. freezeland

    freezeland New Member

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    For the OP the terms used "cuffing" or "cupping" under the chin is somewhat irrelevant. What is meant by these terms is tapping the dog with your palm or finger tips under the chin when the dog starts manipulating the bumper with its mouth rather than having a solid hold on the bumper.

    Bill Hillmans methods are quite good and are proven. I believe the dog in the video above was trained with Hillmans methodology. Just not sure how well they would work on a 1 year old dog such as yours. Most dogs to my knowledge are started on his methods at a much younger age. 10 weeks or so. Much more of a open canvas so to speak.

    The points made above about having a willing student and teaching before correction are very important. It is why I suggested hold should be taught before beginning the ear pinch phase of FF and was the point of my previous post. Good luck with the pup and whatever methods you choose I hope they work for you.
     
  9. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    That may be so (or not). Having used that technique on my previous retrievers, it is important to understand how "tapping the chin" works. Pups not solid on hold are occupied with not doing so. By tapping under the chin one is applying a form of indirect pressure....a distraction from the immediate intentions to "let go". AND providing time for the training to praise the proper holding behavior. The problem with this approach is all to often the inexperienced trainer "thinks" it is a correction and "more would be better" plus using a louder voice. Neither are wise and contrary to the use of indirect pressure. In addition, pups will tend to retreat into actions which are not "healthy" which generally "get in the way" of progress.

    Another useful form of indirect pressure is to get the pup moving with "bumper in mouth" while the "heel" command is emphasized......kind of like walking and chewing gum at the same time. A verbal "good" tends to not only reward "heeling", but "holding" as well. If the pup drops.....just pick it up, deposit back in mouth, continue heeling with praise....at the right time. The usual result is the conditioned response to "hold" is now imprinted........seamlessly with a plan involving no corrections or direct pressure.

    The last thought "fits" in any program.
     
  10. EvanG

    EvanG Elite Refuge Member

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    If you are interested in researching the success of Carr-based program I will gladly provide examples beyond all others. Please let me know if interested.

    EvanG
     

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