What is the difference?

Discussion in 'Gun Dog Forum' started by KwickLabs, Sep 27, 2017.

  1. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    In teaching a dog the "sit" command, the "back" command and/ or the "heel" command what must the dog do (or not do) when a nick precedes the action/behavior vs. when the nick follows the action/behavior?

    Where does the teacher/trainer fit into either sequence? In each case, if the dog does not responding properly......why not?
     
  2. Doc E

    Doc E Elite Refuge Member Sponsor

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    Option three.
    What if the nick is done both before and after the verbal ?
    Option four.
    What if the verbal is given both before and after the nick ?
    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  3. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    Doc E, start your own thread. :h
     
  4. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    There are way too many threads involving young dogs not doing the expected for their inexperienced trainers.
    This mostly happens when the e-collar is being used. The "threads" appear in never ending regularity. For
    perspective, in an AKC Obedience class no one uses an e-collar and the dogs are taught to heel, sit and
    recall wearing only a leash. The back command is not taught, but some form of retrieving is eventually dealt
    with. It is not "rocket science".

    When the e-collar is used, a dog should know what "sit" means in a physical manner BEFORE any collar application
    comes into play. Same thing with heeling. The dog should physically have some idea of what heeling means before
    the collar comes into play. Therefore, the routine for teaching the "back" command begins with the dog first being
    "shown" what "back" means BEFORE any collar application is involved.

    This simply means when the trainer finally seeks to add compulsion (as an added influence on an action) the dog should
    already be able to perform that action. When the dog does not respond correctly the trainer has not defined the moment
    properly.

    All too often this becomes a major issue when "back" is involved. The collar is applied at the wrong time and the dog
    has no idea. Dog needs to be moving on "back" readily before the collar ever comes into play. When this does not
    happen the simple fact IS that a correct sequence of teaching did not occur. This is true in most situations when
    things fail to happen.

    The idea that the e-collar adds compulsion to an action is only effective if the dog already knows what it is to do before
    compulsion is attempted.

    On the other hand, what is the intention of a collar application after the dog is already performing the action? Many
    do not understand the rationale of this application let alone where it fits into the progression.

    The reason there are threads dealing with dogs not doing the expected is because the collar is not magic. One must
    understand the what, when and why while teaching and sit, here, heel, fetch and back must all be "taught first" before
    any collar applications are used (before or after the behavior). One cannot do this "willy-nilly" and expect effective,
    consistent and predictable results.

    Dog does not do well.....it is not the dog.

    How does a young dog learn that "back" means "fetch"......before using the collar? How does a young dog learn
    that his "name" and/or "fetch" mean the same thing? A young dog should know that all three essentially mean
    the same thing before using the collar for compulsion. It is much simpler to teach first because it greatly reduces "issues".

    Then there is the totally different concept of re-enforcing with an e-collar. No wonder new trainers find this challenging.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
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  5. EvanG

    EvanG Elite Refuge Member

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    Especially if they are not following either a sequential, proven program, or are being mentored by a knowledgeable professional. The alternative is experimenting on their dog, which happens a very uncomfortable amount of times among new trainers. That includes using an e-collar with no real concept of what it means to condition to pressure.

    E-collars both compel and correct. But there is reasonable coursework to prepare them to clearly understand application and context. This could be a very helpful discussion.

    EvanG
     
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  6. Hogleg

    Hogleg Senior Refuge Member

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    You have my attention.
     
  7. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    Evan's comment (I believe) was to have a discussion on e-collars as they relate to corrections,
    pressure conditioning, direct and indirect pressure), etc......it is a fairly substantial topic. AND
    not everyone uses it the same way.

    That was not exactly where I intended to go. When the e-collar "comes out" that's when problems
    with teaching are magnified........because the e-collar does not teach.

    Let's pin point a specific situation. What skills must a pup have in place (practiced often) before
    forcing (or re-enforcing) en route to a pile? This will vary a bit (not much) depending on the
    program one is following.
     
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  8. EvanG

    EvanG Elite Refuge Member

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    In my view, the dog in this scenario must have all the force fetch skills well established before beginning force to pile. FTP is the finishing touch for all the previous skills, including fundamental obedience. In performing FTP we assemble them into the 'trained retrieve'. So, what skills must a pup have in place before forcing en route to a pile?

    1. Here, sit, heel - all rock solid.
    2. Hold.
    3. Fetch, including walking fetch, fetch-no-fetch.
    4. Mini-pile (3, or 4 bumpers in a row, each one about 3 feet further than the previous one).
    5. Force to pile: in the basic Force-from-heel fashion.
    6. Force on "Back", having transitioned from 'fetch' to a verbal 'back', as well as a simple Back cast.

    All the mechanics needed for forcing en route are now in place, and your pup should clearly understand how to respond when forced en route.

    EvanG
     
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  9. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    After reading your post, my thinking was to pin-point this one area that is often slighted. The idea of how
    to make a process seamless is often not clear.

    A great deal of time is spent on "fetch" and most pups understand what that means. They will retrieve quite
    readily on their name, too. Without taking time to do the transition of "fetch" to "back", the phase of pile work
    often begins with a great deal of impedance (confusion). Firing on "fetch" or "Name" vs. the confusion
    displayed by "no goes" on "back" with the transmitter in hand is huge clue.
     
  10. bullpinnie

    bullpinnie Elite Refuge Member

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    Describe force to water for us rookies.

    I must have skipped over that step, and my girl is having issues with swim by, and after being recalled so many times, is sometimes a no-go on cold water blinds. :scratch:sp:cry

    We are working through it by doing lots of pattern water blinds. Hopefully corrected by saturday as she should be running for her seasoned title.
     

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