Yes, I'm Trolling.... But

Discussion in 'Christian Forum' started by Boomn4x4, May 4, 2015.

  1. stevena198301

    stevena198301 Elite Refuge Member

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    Some John Adams quotes tell otherwise:

    "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
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    "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
    -letter to Thomas Jefferson
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    "The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."
    - letter to John Taylor
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    "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
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    "The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
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    "Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?" -letter to Thomas Jefferson
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    "God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."
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    "Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"



    ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
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    "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
     
  2. stevena198301

    stevena198301 Elite Refuge Member

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    And these quotes from James Madison really show his Christian leaning:

    "It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."
    James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN 0-8975-298-X. pp. 237-238 .





    "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
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    "Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - Ibid, 1785
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    "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774
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    "Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."
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    "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches
     
  3. bill cooksey

    bill cooksey Elite Refuge Member

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    Taken alone some of those appear as you say, but most appear to take issue with specific institutions. You can find plenty of Adams quotes which make plain his personal beliefs. Here are a few.

    The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1

    Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.2

    The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.3

    Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!4

    I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world
     
  4. blinddog

    blinddog Elite Refuge Member

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    Not that you have the stones to answer this, but....

    If you could ask Jesus what he meant when he said X would he say "well, if you feel this way I meant this; if you feel that way I meant that."?

    The fact that people CHOOSE to interpret Jesus' message is more in line with "feeling better" about a choice they make. ie - rationalization.

    You either follow the Man or you don't. Plenty of people choose to "interpret" things away from what He said so they don't have to sacrifice, more power to them. But that is a reflection of the fallibility of man and not that His message is to be "interpreted". Jesus' teachings are very, very clear and aren't really open for interpretation the way it is being presented here. Notice no solid examples
     
  5. bill cooksey

    bill cooksey Elite Refuge Member

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    We can do this all day. It's very easy to find numerous quotes from Madison regarding his personal belief in Christ. Please take a moment to look since you are so interested. It's very easy to find quotes from these men which would lead you to think one way due to their being removed from the context of the letter or speech in which they were used.
     
  6. bill cooksey

    bill cooksey Elite Refuge Member

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    Jefferson:

    "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man."

    "The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses."

    "I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others."

    "I am a real Christian ? that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

    Madison:

    "A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."

    "I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way."

    Washington:

    "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are."

    "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."

    "The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger. The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier, defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country."

    "I now make it my earnest prayer that God would? most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of the mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion."

    Franklin:

    "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see."

    "The body of Benjamin Franklin, printer, like the cover of an old book, its contents torn out and stripped of its lettering and guilding, lies here, food for worms. Yet the work itself shall not be lost; for it will, as he believed, appear once more in a new and more beatiful edition, corrected and amended by the Author." (FRANKLIN?S EULOGY THAT HE WROTE FOR HIMSELF)
     
  7. stevena198301

    stevena198301 Elite Refuge Member

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    Yes, we could, but I won't. You saying Thomas Jefferson was a Christian is stretching it mighty thin though... I think he was all for religious freedoms, but never would I say he was a Christian.

    BTW... If America was a Christian "state", what would be different, in your mind?
     
  8. spaightlabs

    spaightlabs Elite Refuge Member

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    Forced prayer in school and Muslims would be rounded up and jailed or killed.
     
  9. lanthanide

    lanthanide Elite Refuge Member

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    Ya know what I really think of all this crap...little more than a clinging to guns and religion troll.

    I think the loopy left would do well to consider the following: If they manage to separate us conservatives from our bibles we will be left holding only our guns.

    At that point, when faced with an annoying gaggle of liberals, I have a whole BUNCH of new options before me when I don't have to consider the loss of my immortal soul due to my actions. :amen

    That pesky #6 commandment can go right out the door. Sweet!
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
  10. bill cooksey

    bill cooksey Elite Refuge Member

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    I've never suggested such. I do think it was founded based on Christian ideals. I don't think the government should force ANY religion upon the citizens. What would be the point since faith can't be forced?
     

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