Zogby Poll: Americans Not in Favor of Starving Terri Schiavo

Discussion in 'World News / Current Events Forum' started by Tom Phillips*, Apr 6, 2005.

  1. Chewie

    Chewie Refuge Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    I appreciate you are speaking in general, but I am sure there are some specifics on which you base this opinion. It is hard to debate such an assertion without some support.

    As far as the law, I am pretty sure that the legislation brought by Congress and the President only gave the Federal Court the authority or jurisdiction to review the case. Greer had no authority over this. The review was denied by a Fed court, not a state one.
    There was, I believe, another law passed by the Florida legislature called Terri's law that was struck down by the Florida Supreme Court as unconstitutional, but this was some time in late 2004.
     
  2. Glendonboy

    Glendonboy Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    5,123
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Location:
    Maryland by way of Glendon, NC
    Chewie
    Would that include continueing a feeding tube? My point earlier that Terri's parents had the right to question the husbands authority. They did and got their day(or days) in court. Just as a murderer gets their day(or days) in court. Others on here have worried about politicians getting involved. I just think they need to get more involved now and maybe come up with more exacting rules on custody and define death.
     
  3. Chewie

    Chewie Refuge Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    In short, yes, putting in a feeding tube in knowing contradiction to a patient's wishes is assault.

    As far as the Schindlers getting their day(s) in court, I agree they got it. In fact, they got it well before Terri's Law in Florida, which was deemed unconstitutional, and the legislation from Congress.

    As far as the politicians, one must remember this fight had been going on for some time and Washington only got involved when it had become a major news story nationally. One can't forget that the governor of Florida is the President's brother. There is little doubt that the President, as well as many others in Washington, were well aware of this issue long before it came to the special session, which begs the question why wait so long? The Schindlers had been fighting a losing battle for some time, prolonging the case by exhausting every appeal and according to some, by making false allegations. As best I can reason, Washington politicians did not think it important enough to address until the story rose to the national prominence it did. This makes me question the motives behind the special session effort.

    In addition, I think a good indicator that Congress may have been over-involved was that the Fed judiciary, even after being given the ok, declined to review the case. This certainly makes it look like they think the state handled it appropriately and did not violate anyone's rights.

    Also, defining death is not really the issue in a case like this. Every individual has his or her own ideas on what death is and at what point someone feels life is not worth living. In short, it is a very personal decision and not one easily defined.

    Honestly, I feel like this about like I feel about gun control. We have more than enough law on the books. As I said before, if the husband's situation had not been as it was this would not have been controversial to the extent it was. If there is not enough law regarding this then why were legislators not introducing law to change the progression of custody or how a surrogate decision maker is disqualified?

    This could have been done, but the fact is that these laws already exist and have functioned for some time. Instead, Terri's law in Florida, from what I understand, allowed governor Bush to side step the judicial rulings and re-insert the feeding tube. The Fed legislation allowed the Fed court to review this specific case. If there is such a need for revision of the laws on the books why did they address specific instances and not the bigger picture?

    I think the issue really is that more must be done to avoid any question as to what a patient would want should he/she become incapacitated and no longer able to direct his/her care.
     
  4. Tom Phillips*

    Tom Phillips* Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    7,622
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2001
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area, California
    Specifics are:

    The husband had abandoned his "wife" to live with a common-law wife with whom he had two children.

    He had a conflict of interest in regard to Terri, his legal wife in that she was preventing him from getting married to his common-law wife, and she was consuming the money he would inherit upon her death.

    Michael Schiavo wanted her to die as quickly as possible and had reasonable care and rehabilitation denied her for years. He had much assistance from "The culture of death" to assist him in killing her

    Terri's family loved her and wanted to take care of her. They were for continuing and improving the quality of her life.

    The bottom line is that the court failed Terri in protecting her right to live.
     
  5. Chewie

    Chewie Refuge Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    I'm sorry for the misunderstanding Tom. I was speaking of a specific court decision that you can site as the basis for your assertion that the judiciary oversteps its bounds and overstepped its bounds in this case particularly.
     
  6. Chewie

    Chewie Refuge Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    As for the "specifics":

    It was my understanding the husband did not abandon Terri. Had he, her parents would have been making the decisions regarding her care.

    Again, the courts found, by hearing arguments from both sides with a complete review of the information, that the husband was capable of carrying through with what he thought would have been Terri's wishes.

    Your assertion that he wanted her to die quickly and withheld rehab is hardly consistent with the time line of events.

    I agree with you completely that Terri's family loved her and wanted nothing more than to take care of her. However, you have to understand it is not about them. It is about what Terri would have wanted.

    Did you ever consider the possibility that the husband was right and that this is what Terri would have wanted? In this case, the courts actually protected her rights from being trounced by her family because of what they wanted.
     
  7. Tom Phillips*

    Tom Phillips* Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    7,622
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2001
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area, California
    Michael Schiavo did abandon Terri except to remain legally married to her so that he could put her to death and get whatever he could out of it.

    The timeline is clear.

    It is very doubtful that Terri would have wanted to have been put to death. One very important reason for that being that it is against her religion, and she seemed to take her religion seriously.

    Here is a timeline of events. You can find it yourself at http://www.terrisfight.org

    A comprehensive Timeline and Archive of the Terri Schindler-Schiavo case.

    Since her collapse in 1990, Terri's situation has taken many turns. While her family fights to restore her human rights, a long battle has taken place both in the courts and in the hearts of Americans and those abroad
    We hope this timeline will help make Terri's case more clear and show you why this is such an important cause.

    Some of these entries are links to documents and court records that you can read through. Unless specified, these documents are in Acrobat Reader format.

    1990

    Feb - Terri Collapses in her home

    May - Terri discharged from Humana Hospital in St Petersburg, Florida.

    Dec - Terri taken to California for experimental implant


    1991

    Feb - Terri moved to home with husband.

    Jan - Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center.

    Apr - Terri's condition is assessed as improving.

    Apr - Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue Terri's recovery.

    Jul - Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home.


    1992

    Aug - Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement.

    Nov - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice trial.

    Nov - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial.


    1993

    Feb - Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment.

    Feb - Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri.

    Feb - Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents.

    Feb - Schiavo posts Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart.

    Jun - Schiavo threatens Schindler family with lawsuit.

    Aug - Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

    Sep - Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's guardian.

    Nov - Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of infection could result in Terri's death.


    1994

    Feb - Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit.

    Apr - Terri moved to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.


    1995

    Sep - Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.


    1996

    Jun - Terri's parents obtain court order for access to Terri's medical records.


    1997

    May - Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

    Jul - Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced.

    Aug - Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.


    1998

    Jun - Guardian ad Litem appointed by court to investigate Terri's case.

    Oct - Schiavo offers to donate Terri's inheritance to charity if family agrees to allow removal of her hydration and nutrition.

    Dec - Guardian ad Litem recommends the court not approve Schiavo's petition.


    1999

    Feb - Attorney George Felos files bias charges against Guardian ad Litem.

    Jun - Guardian ad Litem dismissed by the court.


    2000

    Jan - Judge Greer Conducts Terri’s Feeding Tube Removal Trial.

    Feb - Greer Rules to Remove Nutrition Feeding Tube.

    Feb – Affidavits filed by 3 doctors state Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

    Feb - Greer denies petition to allow Terri swallowing tests.

    Apr - Terri Moved from Palm Gardens Nursing Home to Hospice Facility.

    Apr - Greer denies motion to return Terri to Palm Garden Nursing home.

    Apr - Greer imposes restricted visitor list for Terri.

    Jul - Appeal filed with Appellate Court to overturn Greer’s verdict.

    Nov - Appellate Court Conducts Oral Arguments.


    2001

    Jan 25 - The appellate court upholds Judge Greer’s ruling to remove Terri's feeding..

    Feb. 8 - Motion for an Appellate Court rehearing or clarification - Denied.

    Mar 12 - Schiavo petitions to remove Terri’s feeding immediately.

    Mar 23 - Florida Supreme Court denies motion with the to review Terri's case.

    Mar 22 - Appellate Court issued a 30 day execution stay.

    Mar 29 - Judge Greer moves up feeding removal date to April 20, 2001.

    Apr 1 - The Appellate Court denies extending Terri's stay of execution.

    Apr 12 - Attorney Anderson files motion disqualify Judge Greer.

    Apr 16 - Judge Greer denies disqualification motion.

    Apr 18 - The Florida Supreme Court refuses to hear Terri’s case & denies Stay.

    Apr 19 - The Federal Court claimed the issue was beyond that court's jurisdiction.

    Apr 23 - The US Supreme Court refused to hear Terri’s case.

    Apr 24 - Terri Feeding was terminated.

    Apr 25 - Schiavo bans Terri brother and sister from visiting Terri.

    Apr 25 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) reveals Schiavo lied about Terri’s death wishes.

    Apr 26 - Judge Greer refuses to hear new evidence about Schiavo’s lying.

    Apr 26 - New evidence compels Civil court Judge Quesada to resume Terri's feeding.

    Apr 30 - Schiavo files an emergency motion to have Terri's nutritional feeding stopped.

    May 7 - Affidavit filed by Dr. Hammesfahr (neurology) states Terri is not in a PVS.

    May 7 - Schiavo charged in the Civil Court with fraud.

    May 8 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) refuses to testify for fear of Schiavo.

    May 9 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals announces "Oral Arguments Hearing" date.

    May 11 - Schiavo motion to negate Judge Quesada's order denied.

    Jun 1 - Affidavits by five (5) Doctors were filed stating Terri was not in a PVS.

    Jun 1 - Schiavo excused from rendering his deposition.

    Jun 18 - Schiavo files an affidavit that Terri is in an irreversible vegetative.

    Jun 21 - Chief Judge Demers gave Judge George Greer's Court authority to decide whether Terri should have any new medical evaluation or treatment.

    Jun 25 - A three-member panel presided at the Appellate Court hearing.

    Jul 11 - The Appellate Court ordered Greer court to conduct evidentiary hearings. The court denied Schiavo's attorneys request to order Terri's feeding stopped.

    July 23 - Schiavo filed a motion for Judge Greer to immediately stop Terri's feeding.

    Aug 7 - Judge Greer totally ignored or rationalized all the evidence presented to him. Orders Terri's feeding stopped on August 28, 2001.

    Aug 10 - Attorney Anderson motion to disqualify Judge Greer denied.

    Aug 14 - Greer denies request for Conducting Terri Medical Examinations.

    Aug 16 - Attorney Anderson files a Notice of Appeal with the 2nd District Appeal Court.

    Aug 17 - Judge Greer grants Terri a stay of execution until October 9, 2001.

    Aug 20 - Schiavo files with the 2nd District Appeal Court to overrule Judge Greer stay.

    Oct 7 - 2nd District Appeal Court orders Terri to be neurological tested.

    Oct 23 - Schiavo files a motion to reverse the Appellate Court neurological tests order.

    Nov 1 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals denies Schiavo's motion..

    Nov 16 - Terri's medical testing plan will be determined before a mediator.

    Dec 19 - Attorneys meet with a mediator in an attempt to agree upon the tests .


    2002

    Jan 18 - Mediated agreement failed, testing is back Greer’s courtroom to be resolved.

    Jan 25 - Attorney Anderson petitioned the court for an evidentiary guardianship hearing.

    Jan 29 - Judge Greer approved Schiavo's motion to cancel the evidentiary hearing.

    Feb 7 - Schiavo files with the Florida Supreme Court to overturn the Appellate Court's October ruling which spared Terri's life.

    Mar 14 - The Florida Supreme Court denied Michael Schiavo’s appeal.

    Jun 19 - Schiavo objects to the medical and neurological testing.

    Jul 1 - Judge Greer conducted a 3+ hr hearing involving three issues:
    1. Schiavo’s Plan to Enroll Terri into a Medicaid Program
    2 Termination of Schiavo's Attorney Fees
    3. Equal Payment for Terri's Examining Doctors

    Jul 10 - Court Hearing again was for the purpose of allowing certain medical tests that were requested to evaluate Terri’s true medical and neurological condition.

    Jul 12 - Judge Greer ruled -not-to-pay- Terri’s doctors for their professional fees to examine Terri. Notably, in a previous hearing, Judge Greer -approved- payment for Schiavo’s doctors fees.

    Jul 22 - Judge Greer approved three of Terri’s desired neurological tests and rejected a dozen other.

    Aug 28 - Judge Greer established the dates for Terri's trial.

    Oct 2 - Schiavo files petition to prohibit the media from seeing Terri’s recent neurological examination videotapes or airing the video’s to the public after they have been presented to the court as evidence.

    Oct 2 - Schiavo petitioned the court to authorize Terri’s cremation.

    Oct 11-22 Terri’s trial

    Nov15 - Judge Greer conducted a hearing in response to a motion Attorney Anderson filed requesting time to investigate recent evidence suggesting Terri’s heart failure may have been caused by physical abuse.

    Nov 22 - Greer orders Terri’s starvation death to begin on Jan 3, 2003.

    Dec 9 - Attorney Anderson filed a ‘Notice of Appeal’ to the 2nd District Appellate Court.

    Dec 9- Attorney Anderson filed a motion with Judge Greer to ‘stay’ the January 3rd feeding termination date.

    Dec 10 - Schiavo filed a motion with Judge Greer to strike attorney Anderson’s motion to ‘stay,’ requesting a court hearing to argue his objection.

    Dec 13 - Judge Greer acquiesced to Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to conduct a hearing, which resulted in a ‘stay’ being granted, pending appellate resolution.

    Dec 18 - Schiavo filed a motion with the 2nd District Appellate Court to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13th order.

    Dec 23 - The 2nd Appellate Court denied Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13, 2002 ‘stay’ order. Furthermore, the Appellate Court established filing dates and scheduled Appellate oral arguments to take place on April 4, 2003.
     
  8. Tom Phillips*

    Tom Phillips* Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    7,622
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2001
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area, California
    2003

    Guardian Removal Petition Still Pending…
    On November 15, 2002, attorney Anderson filed a petition with Judge Greer to remove Michael Schiavo as Terri’s legal guardian. The petition included a declaration of Adversary Proceedings, charging that Michael Schiavo violated a dozen or more specific Florida Statutes while serving in his capacity as Terri’s legal guardian.

    Apr - Appellate Court Hearing.

    Jun - Appellate Court Upholds Greer.

    Jul - Appellate Court Denies Court Review and Stay.

    Jul - Appellate Court grants 30 day stay.

    Aug - Terri hospitalized under mysterious conditions, denied visits from her priest.

    Sep - Emergency hearing to allow visitation and obtain current medical information.

    Sep - Michael Schiavo ordered by court to give discharge summary to Terri's parents.

    Sep - Judge Greer scheduled October 15, 2003 for the removal of Terri's sustenance.

    Oct - 15 Terri's sustenance removed at Hospice Woodside in Pinellas Park, FL.

    Oct - 20 Florida Legislature and Senate meet in special session Terri's bill is introduced.

    Oct - 21 Terri's bill approved, signed into law. Governor Bush issues executive orderr.

    Oct - 23 Michael Schiavo announces plans to sue Governor Bush and challenge Terri's Law as unconstitutional.

    Oct - Dr. Jay Wolfson of Tampa, Florida assigned as independent Guardian ad Litem.

    Nov - New Guardianship hearing in Sixth Circuit court.

    Nov - Disability advocacy groups file Amicus Brief.

    Nov - Judge Baird to hear case on Terri's Law. Governor not properly served in suit, appeals venue.

    Nov - Governor Bush petitions to remove Judge W. Douglas Baird on suggestion of bias.

    Dec - 3 Terri's birthday. Supporters convene at Woodside Hospice. Terri receives more than 1,000 birthday cards and gifts.

    Dec - Governor Bush denied discovery in Schiavo v Bush. Governor denied subpoenaing witnesses.

    Dec - 20 Guardian ad Litem dismissed by Judge Demers.

    Dec - 22 Judge Baird rules that he will issue a summary ruling on Terri's law without a trial. His ruling is withheld until appeals by Governor Bush are ruled upon in the Second District Court of Appeals in Lakeland, Florida.


    2004

    Jan - 8, Judge Demers denies petition for reinstatement of Guardian ad Litem
     
  9. Chewie

    Chewie Refuge Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    Tom-
    It is unfortunate that you quote the site with the most biased position available. You would lend much more credence to your argument if you could find something objective.

    Also, the page you have managed to cut and paste in no way gives specific examples, with your support, of why you believe the courts have overstepped their bounds.

    Considering the source of the time line, I seriously question how impartial, complete and thorough it is.

    Even this time line, despite its slant, dispels your assertion that he denied treatment(Dec 1990). This time line also supports my assertion that the courts found no reason to remove the husband as guardian, despite innumerable appeals and public scrutiny. I must also point out that if the husband had truly abandoned her the time line would be shorter, and the Schindlers would have directed Terri's care.

    As far as this decision not being one Terri would have made because of her religious conviction, I must disagree. Pope John Paul II, the leader of the Catholic Church, decided not to go to the hospital and to remain in his apartment, a couple of days prior to his passing. I hardly think that it would be contrary to Terri's religious convictions if the Pope made a similar decision. That to refuse treatment.

    It is obvious we fundamentally disagree. There will be no resolution to this and at this point no new evidence. If we keep on at this pace, we'll end up copying and pasting our original responses by tomorrow evening.
     
  10. Tom Phillips*

    Tom Phillips* Elite Refuge Member

    Messages:
    7,622
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2001
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area, California
    It doesn't matter to you if the timeline posted is true, does it?

    The time from the monetary award to the denial of treatment was three months (Nov 1992 to Feb 1993). Not too long. He never intended to lose his grip on Terri's life or death as we have seen.

    You are just simply clearly wrong on the Catholic position regarding feeding tubes. The pope is a fine example to use:

    The Roman Catholic Church has taken a strong stance in the saga of Schiavo, the brain-damaged woman whose parents are fighting to keep her alive. Her Catholic faith has been such an important issue in the case that a court ordered doctors to deliver the sacrament of Holy Communion through her feeding tube before it was removed March 18. Pope John Paul II has said feeding tubes are "morally obligatory" for most patients in vegetative states, and high-ranking cardinals have followed up by referring to Schiavo, saying that removing her feeding tube could lead to legalized euthanasia...
     

Share This Page