EIC Carrier

Don Smith

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True but if noone ever bred carriers we probably could have been close to eradicating eic by now.
And you would also been removing some outstanding field trial champions from the gene pool. As long as everyone does recommended genetic tests and pays attention to what they're doing, there's not a problem. It only becomes a problem when some idiot doesn't do genetic testing -- backyard breeders, who have no idea what their doing.
 

Don Smith

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Theyre not going to test the pups? Last pup i bought the breeded tested the litter, i took a carrier but i knew i wasnt going to breed her
I'm an AKC Breeder of Merit for Labrador Retrievers. I don't know of anyone who tests an entire litter for EIC. Granted, I haven't done a survey, but there is no reason to do so as long as both sire and dam have been tested and at least one is clear and the other is only a carrier. In those cases, 1/2 would be clear, 1/2 would be carriers. None would be affected. I acknowledge that Bclick said the pups from the last litter he got a dog from was tested. I'm just not sure why the breeder did that, unless the wanted to let the buyers know which were carriers and which were not. I do test every litter for the genetic makeup on the B, E and D Loci. The first two, in case a buyer wants, or doesn't want, a pup with a hidden color. Granted, if both sire and dam are homozygous black, such testing isn't necessary. But in my last two litters, the sire was homozygous black and dam was black, hidden chocolate. The D Locus test is to ensure that the puppies are, indeed, purebred Labs, i.e. have two dominate genes on the D Locus. Obviously, I already know that's the fact before I breed (otherwise I wouldn't breed to that particular sire) and, also, if I do the D Locus test then the puppy buyer can register that test with OFA, giving them one of the required tests for the pup's CHIC number. D Locus testing is really necessary to ensure that a dog with a recessive gene on the D Locus is eliminated from the gene pool. If a dog is homozygous on the D Locus, i.e. Dd, then there's a dilute in its background and it's not a purebred Lab.
 
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Bclick

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I'm an AKC Breeder of Merit for Labrador Retrievers. I don't know of anyone who tests an entire litter for EIC. Granted, I haven't done a survey, but there is no reason to do so as long as both sire and dam have been tested and at least one is clear and the other is only a carrier. In those cases, 1/2 would be clear, 1/2 would be carriers. None would be affected. I acknowledge that Bclick said the pups from the last litter he got a dog from was tested. I'm just not sure why the breeder did that, unless the wanted to let the buyers know which were carriers and which were not. I do test every litter for the genetic makeup on the B, E and D Loci. The first two, in case a buyer wants, or doesn't want, a pup with a hidden color. Granted, if both sire and dam are homozygous black, such testing isn't necessary. But in my last two litters, the sire was homozygous black and dam was black, hidden chocolate. The D Locus test is to ensure that the puppies are, indeed, purebred Labs, i.e. have two dominate genes on the D Locus. Obviously, I already know that's the fact before I breed (otherwise I wouldn't breed to that particular sire) and, also, if I do the D Locus test then the puppy buyer can register that test with OFA, giving them one of the required tests for the pup's CHIC number. D Locus testing is really necessary to ensure that a dog with a recessive gene on the D Locus is eliminated from the gene pool. If a dog is homozygous on the D Locus, i.e. Dd, then there's a dilute in its background and it's not a purebred Lab.
My breeder did, sorry it set you off. As devoted as you are there are thousands of breeders who probably dont even know eic exists. Maybe limited registrations are the answer.
 

Don Smith

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My breeder did, sorry it set you off. As devoted as you are there are thousands of breeders who probably dont even know eic exists. Maybe limited registrations are the answer.
It didn't set me off and I didn't say it did. I just don't know personally of anyone who does test a litter for EIC. The only circumstance I can imagine why one would do that is if the breeder doesn't know the EIC status of either the sire or dam or both. If one does know the EIC status of both the sire and dam, and if 1) both are clear or 2) one is clear and the other is a carrier, then they would know that the pups would either 1) all be clear or 2) statistically, 1/2 would be clear and 1/2 would be carriers. None would be affected. As I said above, in the case of 2), they might test the litter so they could tell buyers which are clear and which are carriers, but I don't see the point since a carrier is only a carrier and has does NOT have the condition. If a buyer wants to breed the pup later, it's incumbent upon them to do all recommended genetic test, including EIC.

I agree with you that there are probably thousands who breed Labs who don't know that EIC exists. I wouldn't call them breeders.
 

Don Smith

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Exercise Induced Collapse.

Exercise-induced collapse (EIC) is characterized by muscle weakness, lack of coordination, and life-threatening collapse after intense exercise in otherwise apparently healthy dogs. Affected dogs tolerate mild to moderate activity but will display signs of EIC after 5-20 minutes of strenuous exercise. The severity of EIC varies. EIC episodes last from 5-25 minutes with a gradual return to normal with no apparent residual weakness or stiffness.
That statement is absolutely true. I would absolutely never countenance anyone being so reckless as to breed EIC untested dogs, but it hasn't been that many years (maybe 20 or so), since we new much about it and there wasn't a test for it. About that long ago, University of Minnesota developed a test and we used to have to send samples there. Now, any genetic testing company can do it.* Fifteen or so years ago I trained a very nice, field champion sired, Lab owned by a physician. The dog was EIC affected. The owner became aware of that before he brought me the dog and, responsibly, had him neutered. Although I was always vigilant for any symptoms, I never saw any. I didn't modify the training because of the EIC diagnosis. He did fine. He was actually with me twice - the first time for basics and the second for intermediate, including handling. The owner wanted me to run him in hunt tests. He passed every test he was in and titled. He was a very driven, hard charging dog, yet I never saw any symptoms. I once asked the owner if he ever saw any symptoms and he said the only time he had was when this dog and his coonhound were running deer on his land. He owned a few hundred acres, much of it wooded. I don't agree with him letting his dog do that.

*Testing is so much easier now. Centronuclear myopathy (CNM) is a devastating condition that Labs can have. We used to have to send samples to the Alford Clinic in France for testing. Now, all genetic testing companies can do the test.
 

Labsforme

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EIC is very controllable. To actually remove it from the gene pool may be a big mistake. As Don noted that probably the best trial dogs are EIC carriers. I have had an EIC affected BLF that was in the first U of Mn testing. Top side Dust Devil Shoot the Moon, he was out of Lean Mac, bottom Code Blue x Chena River Wild Lady ( dam to Shaq). FYI Lean Mac, Rudy, Cosmo, and many others were EIC carriers. As long as it is known not a problem. Backyard "breeders" are the bane of keeping good genetics. I do know some real breeders test the litter because they want to keep one.

Jeff G
 

Don Smith

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EIC is very controllable. To actually remove it from the gene pool may be a big mistake. As Don noted that probably the best trial dogs are EIC carriers. I have had an EIC affected BLF that was in the first U of Mn testing. Top side Dust Devil Shoot the Moon, he was out of Lean Mac, bottom Code Blue x Chena River Wild Lady ( dam to Shaq). FYI Lean Mac, Rudy, Cosmo, and many others were EIC carriers. As long as it is known not a problem. Backyard "breeders" are the bane of keeping good genetics. I do know some real breeders test the litter because they want to keep one.

Jeff G
Excellent post, Jeff! As I recall, Maxx (Ebonstar Lean Mac) was suspected of being an EIC carrier. He died in 2002. I believe the genetic test developed by University of Minnesota wasn't available until 2008.* His impact on the retriever world was exceptional. I don't know how many litters he sired, but I believe he was used at stud more than any other. Almost 400 of his produce was titled, maybe more.** He sired at least 157 field champions, amateur field champions, Canadian field champions and Canadian amateur field champions.*** Maxx is in many, many pedigrees, sometimes more than once. http://www.theretrievernews.com/uploads/5/0/1/0/50103541/ebonstar_lean_mac.pdf (the attached article was published in 2003, so some of the totals for his produces' accomplishments is low. He was elected to the Retriever Hall of Fame in 2003, the year after his death. That's almost unheard of.
*According to Retriever Training Forums. https://www.retrievertraining.net/threads/eic-results-feel-free-to-post-results-here.29598/
**Huntinglabpedigree.com lists 358 titled offspring. That may not have been updated.
***According to a 2013 comment in Retriever Training Forums (post #63). Since that was only 4 years after he died, there could, and probably are, more. https://www.retrievertraining.net/t...7 FCs,AFCs,CFCs, or CAFCs. Nathan Arnold Save
 

Don Smith

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bullpinnie

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Excellent post, Jeff! As I recall, Maxx (Ebonstar Lean Mac) was suspected of being an EIC carrier. He died in 2002. I believe the genetic test developed by University of Minnesota wasn't available until 2008.* His impact on the retriever world was exceptional. I don't know how many litters he sired, but I believe he was used at stud more than any other. Almost 400 of his produce was titled, maybe more.** He sired at least 157 field champions, amateur field champions, Canadian field champions and Canadian amateur field champions.*** Maxx is in many, many pedigrees, sometimes more than once. http://www.theretrievernews.com/uploads/5/0/1/0/50103541/ebonstar_lean_mac.pdf (the attached article was published in 2003, so some of the totals for his produces' accomplishments is low. He was elected to the Retriever Hall of Fame in 2003, the year after his death. That's almost unheard of.
*According to Retriever Training Forums. https://www.retrievertraining.net/threads/eic-results-feel-free-to-post-results-here.29598/
**Huntinglabpedigree.com lists 358 titled offspring. That may not have been updated.
***According to a 2013 comment in Retriever Training Forums (post #63). Since that was only 4 years after he died, there could, and probably are, more. https://www.retrievertraining.net/threads/ebonstar-lean-mac-questions-history.14818/#:~:text=Good dog has that he sired,137 FCs,AFCs,CFCs, or CAFCs. Nathan Arnold Save
Yep. You beat me to the punch on this. Lean Mc was suspected of being a carrier. Unfortunately, I had a Dog that Lean Mac sire that was EIC Affected. She went down pretty hard twice while hunting, and I retired her after her second big collapse that nearly killed her. that was probably 18 or 19 years ago before genetic testing was common practice.
 

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