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Puppy training

Discussion in 'Gun Dog Forum' started by Dr Duk, May 21, 2020 at 4:28 PM.

  1. duckbuster5901

    duckbuster5901 Elite Refuge Member

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    Evidently you didn,t read the part where I said goose dummys,(dokens)didn,t help. Dog had retrieved them in training numerous times . Dog just had its mine made up that it didn,t like the additional weight of goose out of water. Same dog decided at about 2 that it no longer needed to obey hand/whistle signals on blinds. Had been thoroughly trained on them and normally ran them fine on water and land. Last dog I trained without an e collar . That was about 25 years ago. Other than that land goose quirk he was a great hunting dog and could literally dig out a crippled hidden duck in the deep marsh vegetation my blind was at.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 2:07 PM
  2. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    Well, I did read the Dokken entry. Dokkens were only part of the process.
    note: Most never use a Dokken.

    It seems like there were a lot of things the dog did not like to do. One must accept
    the premise that if a trainer points an index finger at his dog the other three are aimed
    back at the dog's teacher. Many fail to recognize that training is a two-way street. I have
    been there often enough to recognize that it is does not create a warm/fuzzy feeling. :reader

    It is a common fact that a well trained dog is kind like a work of art. Keep in mind
    that the final picture is a combination of the sculptor's skills and whatever the dog
    brings to the table. :h There is an expression that fits....often. It's not the dog.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 3:04 PM
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  3. duckbuster5901

    duckbuster5901 Elite Refuge Member

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    Not a lot, but that one quirk he never really grew out of. Your absolutely right about the failure being something I never could figure out and was evidently something I missed in his training. That being said the point I was trying to get thru was I believe to this day if I had FF,d him problem would have never arose and when it did a simple command would have been able to correct it. Each dog thru years has taught me something while I,ve owned it and that one 25 yrs ago taught me the value of FF. And that doesn,t mean every dog needs it but I,d prefer not to find that out the way I did back then so I FF.
     
  4. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    That's a great piece of insight. I'd prefer to not count the number of times for myself.

    Learning from mistakes is inefficient, but it is part of the process. I had a young female that was
    extremely talented....at times. For about five years, I struggled with her training. Then I went
    back and reviewed her training journals. About six months out of each year she was brilliant
    and the other six brain dead. I had her spade and the issue promptly ended. I still think back
    on what she could have been if I had been more diligent in figuring out the problem. :doh
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 5:32 PM
  5. Rick Hall

    Rick Hall Elite Refuge Member

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    Maybe. While there may be FFed dogs that will retrieve a dime off a tile floor or a bee off a flower if told to, there are most definitely also "professionally" FFed dogs that balk at ducks. (Presumably because ducks weren't included in the FF process.) And there are most definitely FFed duck fetchers that refuse their first geese.

    Revisiting FF to include the bird in question would be one way of addressing those problems. Just as revisiting FF would be one way of addressing other issues that are apt to crop up if the lessons of FF aren't maintained by the handler.

    Though that's likely only so if the person doing the revisiting actually knows what they're doing and doesn't just think they do. In which case, they may well dig a confused dog's hole much deeper with a transmitter.
     
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  6. James Seibel

    James Seibel New Member

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    I have a bunch of stories I could tell you all but do not have time today . I will mention this one dog I force fetched for man in Conn. I told him to shoot 75 ducks for dog before he attempted a Goose. Any way dog did all that blind retrieve thing. Later when dog was little older the man calls me and says he tried every thing under sun to get dog to retrieve a goose. Even shooting lots of ducks for dog to give him practice. Dog still would not retrieve a goose. He drove down from conn. Handed me a Goose and the dog . I took the Goose and placed it about 30 yards out . Came back , ear pinched the dog and he ran out and picked up the goose . Mean while the owner was dumb founded looked at me and said I drove all the way from Conn so you could ear pinch my dog ? ? Ha ha , He retrieved every Goose thrown that day and Dan took dog home and dog continued to retrieve Geese in the field and water for him .

    end of story

    Just a thought You can have a good natural retriever without force fetching But you can have a better more well trained and more reliable retriever that can go through a Lardy / Carr / Farmer or what ever program you want to call it with far less problems . I will not even think of using a ecollar program , handling program without force fetching a dog . Rather you use conventional system or Hillman system.

    There is always many other systems to get a dog to retrieve , like R-+ , clicker training , treat training.

    Like I was told by a old time trainer in 1972

    A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure
     
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  7. Rick Hall

    Rick Hall Elite Refuge Member

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    May sound stupid simple, but every time a guest dog has refused to retrieve a bird on one of our hunts, the "trick" has been to simply NOT pressure the dog to pick it up (and create negative associations with it) and then incorporate the bird in a retrieving routine the dog was accustomed to. Ie: heel the dog and toss a bumper (or duck) it's accustomed to retrieving a couple times to prime the pump, then substitute the unfamiliar bird into that same familiar retrieving scenario. Presto, gusto, poof...Pup's retrieving the new bird.

    Certainly not nearly enough times to declare the method foolproof, but I've seen it work slick more than a few times over the decades I've been carrying the public afield.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020 at 8:56 AM
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  8. Dr Duk

    Dr Duk Elite Refuge Member

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    Full video. Not sure why she hesitated, but hits the water hard!
     
  9. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    Your description of "presto" was excellent! :tu
     
  10. James Seibel

    James Seibel New Member

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    Rick ,
    I know you are Anti Force Fetch and that is ok , I respect you and your success by not doing so . I can only use the excuse that I did not know better or did not learn any other way to get a non retrieving pointing dog to retrieve.

    When I went to work for that old pro in 1972 fresh out of high School he told me that Force Fetch was like a insurance policy . A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. All the natural retrievers were forced fetched as well and that was my new job. He could not afford to have a Field trial dog not forced fetched. I can remember watching a Natural Retriever in a Pointing Dog stake about to win it when they shot a Flyer pheasant and the dog refused to pick it up for some strange reason . That dog never did become a FC .

    If I came to your hunting camp with a force fetched retriever I can about say with no question there is no bird my dog would not pick up even a new type of bird , and that includes Crows shot for them.

    But you had to show the owner how to do Presto , gusto Poof in order to get dog to retrieve. And it is probably no different that what I might have done. But they are not running field trials or hunt test where by all birds are not created equal if you know what I mean and you can not do Presto , gusto , Poof to fix the problem that should Never have happened in the first place.

    I will never be convinced a Natural retriever not force fetched is a better retriever . I can not for one simple reason I make a living force fetching dogs. I have seen to many positive outcomes. But also note I have seen some unfair methods or people doing ff.

    I still maintain if people are going to use a pressure based program for all their retriever training , Force fetch is the foundation drill for all Retriever training that is followed by . Walking fetch , Stick Fetch , collar fetch , Force to the pile .

    Like I tell people when they bring me a dog that they want British Trained - I say I am the wrong person , they need to find different trainer .
     

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