switching to TSS - 3 questions from a neophyte

[Ravenanme]

Even with my OS card loads , I have had no faith in seeing the pattern performance after 5 or 10 shots !
I haven't much experience with roll crimping as my fold crimps have done a wonderful job so-far !
It would be helpful to all on the forum , if , you posted that recipe ? In Detail ! Please ?
I do use a Gaep finishing tool , I am a believer in the advantage it gives after a 10 shot average on my F1 Chorny ! Consistency

 

[RPC1977]

I eat a crap-ton of chukars so biting TSS is a potential issue for me. I broke a tooth on steel shot many years ago before I got a pinpoint metal detector for ducks. Chukar hunting is not like Turkey hunting. You can't intentionally shoot them in the head.

Within 50 yards, most 9s pass completely through ducks.

 

[C M Wings]

Ok gents, I shot an initial series of patterns with the duplex handloads Friday. Sadly, they are an unqualified failure. They produced some of the most bizarre patterns I have ever seen. However, there is something to be learned even in failure. To that end, I will be posting a series of detailed statistics and pattern images in the coming days. I think they will provide interesting discussion. My question to you all: Should I post the pattern data in this thread (which has become rather long) or start a new thread?

Can you describe your “failure?”

 

[cd2]

I would say create a new thread, and whatever issue you are having in your patterns is probably very easy to fix

 

[Northhunter]

I would leave them here.. finding the last viewed post isn't exactly hard, and this is where all the OP's info is. Starting a new thread will leave it open to guys replying and going on about stuff that's already been covered. Just my $.02
Plus I think starting a new one would make Native's spidey sense go off the rails

Post up.
Reloaders love a good problem until they're the one experiencing it!

 

[C M Wings]

I finished my initial production for testing. CMwings, your tutorial was spot-on and everything fit together just as you described. Now I'm off to the pattern board.
View attachment 380761

I was wondering how they would pattern when I saw this. Before making any changes, try loading a couple with the TSS on top. It carry’s velocity better than the steel and what you might be seeing is it banging through the steel cloud making a mess of your pattern. Looks like 30+ gns of Longshot powder. You’ll have plenty of speed to open up the TSS part of your load and let the steel follow. I’m not a big believer in duplex. An ounce of TSS 7.5s will smoke magnum geese at as far as you can shoot. If you’re gonna duplex, duplex sizes of the same type shot.

 

[duckrogers]

I was wondering how they would pattern when I saw this. Before making any changes, try loading a couple with the TSS on top. It carry’s velocity better than the steel and what you might be seeing is it banging through the steel cloud making a mess of your pattern. Looks like 30+ gns of Longshot powder. You’ll have plenty of speed to open up the TSS part of your load and let the steel follow. I’m not a big believer in duplex. An ounce of TSS 7.5s will smoke magnum geese at as far as you can shoot. If you’re gonna duplex, duplex sizes of the same type shot.

You are correct that one of the problems I am seeing is that the steel pattern is blown apart with the steel pellets scattered everywhere and not contributing much inside a 30" circle around the point-of-impact. I am imagining them being pushed aside by the TSS as it travels through the steel shot mass. This sounds like what hawglips was describing in his 2012 post that I quoted earlier. I am posting data and pattern images in a few minutes.

 

[duckrogers]

Here is some initial data from my duplex load tests.

This load is courtesy of CMwings who developed and tested it. These components fit together perfectly.

Load recipe:

• 12 ga Cheddite 2-3/4” 8mm brass, new, primed, skived
• 29 grains Longshot
• TPS 12ga 35mm wad
• X12X Symmetrical Gas Seal
• 3/4 oz Zinc-Plated Steel Shot #3
• 1/2 oz TSS #9
• 12 ga overshot card
• roll crimp

Loading procedure:

First, I trimmed 1/8" off the hull. Next, I hand loaded all components, weighing powder and shot for each load. I counted 5 samples of steel shot and 4 samples of TSS for pellet count.

	Average count
total pellet count	303​	sample 1	sample 2	sample 3	sample 4	sample 5
steel pellet count	112​	112​	113​	110​	112​	112​
tungsten pellet count	191​	189​	191​	191​	192​

TSS was loaded first then steel. After filling the wad with shot, I compacted the load with 40-50 lbs of force from a wooden dowel, and then placed the overshot card. I made the roll crimps with a precision reloading roll crimp tool and a hand drill. After crimping, a few pieces of steel shot in each load were about ½ diameter above the top of the wad.

Patterning procedure:

8 patterns were shot on a 4’x4’ sheet of OSB covered with 48” wide white paper.

All patterns were shot at 40 yds from a bench rest to minimize human error in POI.

The weather was 55 F with a light breeze (<5 mph) in the direction of the shot.

All wads and spent hulls were retrieved (more on that to come).

Patterns were photographed and processed with the “Shotgun Insight” software by AC Jones. This software detects pellet marks in the photos and automatically calculates all pattern statistics. It was not designed for duplex shells so I added duplex statistics manually. The program output calculates the center-of-mass of the pellet distribution and uses that as the point-of-impact (POI) for the shot cloud eliminating human error in the placement of POI. It overlays circles at 10”, 20” and 30” centered on the POI to calculate statistics. The pattern images shown below from the program output show the point-of-aim (POA) as the center of the green reticle. The POI, the 20” circle and the 30” circle are also drawn in the output image.

Pattern minimum success criteria:

These criteria are based on characteristics I observe in lead #5 shell patterns I have been using for chukar hunting for 30 years.

• Total pellets in 30” circle around POI > 170
• Total pellets in 20”-30” annulus around POI > 70 (This is to rule out high percentage patterns with a hot core inside a 20” circle. For example, a full choke pattern)

Here is a 40 yd pattern from the lead #5 shells I shoot chukar hunting. This has a high probability of killing a chukar almost anywhere inside the 30” circle.

Lead #5 shell pattern statistics:

Pellets in 30” circle = 186
Pellets in 20”-30” annulus = 76




Finally, here is data for one of the patterns from the duplex loads that I have analyzed thus far and came fairly close to meeting my pattern requirements:

Duplex pattern #2 (modified choke):

Note: the "shotgun insight" image does not show all of the pattern board.

Pattern statistics:

Steel pellets on the board = 85 (76% of total steel)

Tungsten pellets on the board = 170 (89% of total tungsten)

Steel pellets in 30” circle = 34 (30% of total steel)

Tungsten pellets in 30” circle = 154 (81% of total tungsten)

Total pellets in 30” circle = 188 (62% of total pellets)

Total pellets in 20”-30” annulus = 56 (18% of total pellets)



Comments on duplex pattern #2:

This pattern has a very dense core of tungsten shot combined with a blown steel shot pattern. The steel shot does not contribute much to the pellet count in a 30” circle around POI. It has an adequate total pellet count inside the 30” circle, but lacks pattern density in the outer 20"-30” annulus. Even though it meets the definition of a modified-choke pattern (“60% of total pellets in a 30” circle”), it has a visibly different density distribution with a more dense core than the lead #5 modified choke pattern discussed earlier.

I will continue to post more data as I can get it analyzed and written-up.

 

[JFG]

^^^ Good stuff!

 

[Dr Swane]

Here is some initial data from my duplex load tests.

This load is courtesy of CMwings who developed and tested it. These components fit together perfectly.

Load recipe:

• 12 ga Cheddite 2-3/4” 8mm brass, new, primed, skived
• 29 grains Longshot
• TPS 12ga 35mm wad
• X12X Symmetrical Gas Seal
• 3/4 oz Zinc-Plated Steel Shot #3
• 1/2 oz TSS #9
• 12 ga overshot card
• roll crimp

Load test report from CMwings: 1400 fps, 9000 psi

Loading procedure:

First, I trimmed 1/8" off the hull. Next, I hand loaded all components, weighing powder and shot for each load. I counted 5 samples of steel shot and 4 samples of TSS for pellet count.

	Average count
total pellet count	303​	sample 1	sample 2	sample 3	sample 4	sample 5
steel pellet count	112​	112​	113​	110​	112​	112​
tungsten pellet count	191​	189​	191​	191​	192​

TSS was loaded first then steel. After filling the wad with shot, I compacted the load with 40-50 lbs of force from a wooden dowel, and then placed the overshot card. I made the roll crimps with a precision reloading roll crimp tool and a hand drill. After crimping, a few pieces of steel shot in each load were about ½ diameter above the top of the wad.

Patterning procedure:

8 patterns were shot on a 4’x4’ sheet of OSB covered with 48” wide white paper.

All patterns were shot at 40 yds from a bench rest to minimize human error in POI.

The weather was 55 F with a light breeze (<5 mph) in the direction of the shot.

All wads and spent hulls were retrieved (more on that to come).

Patterns were photographed and processed with the “Shotgun Insight” software by AC Jones. This software detects pellet marks in the photos and automatically calculates all pattern statistics. It was not designed for duplex shells so I added duplex statistics manually. The program output calculates the center-of-mass of the pellet distribution and uses that as the point-of-impact (POI) for the shot cloud eliminating human error in the placement of POI. It overlays circles at 10”, 20” and 30” centered on the POI to calculate statistics. The pattern images shown below from the program output show the point-of-aim (POA) as the center of the green reticle. The POI, the 20” circle and the 30” circle are also drawn in the output image.

Pattern minimum success criteria:

These criteria are based on characteristics I observe in lead #5 shell patterns I have been using for chukar hunting for 30 years.

• Total pellets in 30” circle around POI > 170
• Total pellets in 20”-30” annulus around POI > 70 (This is to rule out high percentage patterns with a hot core inside a 20” circle. For example, a full choke pattern)

Here is a 40 yd pattern from the lead #5 shells I shoot chukar hunting. This has a high probability of killing a chukar almost anywhere inside the 30” circle.

View attachment 381744
Lead #5 shell pattern statistics:

Pellets in 30” circle = 186
Pellets in 20”-30” annulus = 76




Finally, here is data for one of the patterns from the duplex loads that I have analyzed thus far and came fairly close to meeting my pattern requirements:

Duplex pattern #2 (modified choke):

View attachment 381745

View attachment 381746

Note: the "shotgun insight" image does not show all of the pattern board.

Pattern statistics:

Steel pellets on the board = 85 (76% of total steel)

Tungsten pellets on the board = 170 (89% of total tungsten)

Steel pellets in 30” circle = 34 (30% of total steel)

Tungsten pellets in 30” circle = 154 (81% of total tungsten)

Total pellets in 30” circle = 188 (62% of total pellets)

Total pellets in 20”-30” annulus = 56 (18% of total pellets)



Comments on duplex pattern #2:

This pattern has a very dense core of tungsten shot combined with a blown steel shot pattern. The steel shot does not contribute much to the pellet count in a 30” circle around POI. It has an adequate total pellet count inside the 30” circle, but lacks pattern density in the outer 20"-30” annulus. Even though it meets the definition of a modified-choke pattern (“60% of total pellets in a 30” circle”), it has a visibly different density distribution with a more dense core than the lead #5 modified choke pattern discussed earlier.

I will continue to post more data as I can get it analyzed and written-up.

Your results may improve if you used steel or even LilGun powder. Longshot is a decent option, but in my experience through many gauges, shot types, and payloads, tends to throw varied patterns, I’m assuming it’s has to do with an aggressive pressure spike. All in all, you patterns seem workable and fine to me.

Apex used load or offer a 0.25 and a 0.50 #9tss load option over #2steel shot (1.25oz total payload) in a 3” hull. That held a tight core of tss and what you’d expect in a #2steel pattern in a mod choke at 40yards.

I’ve had varied patterns with certain shot sizes paired. Hw15 6’s and steel 4’s, for what ever reason have patterned better for me than hw15 7’s and steel 3’s. Both loads however kill geese.