switching to TSS - 3 questions from a neophyte

[duckrogers]

If your pattern problem is that the core of TSS is too tight and the steel is just dotted around, putting the TSS on top will just make this worse. Your best bet is to loosen the choke to create a more even steel pattern and expand the TSS core. Have you shot an Improved Cylinder?

When pattern testing I shot an initial series with cyl, imp cyl, mod and full (one shot each) to get a ballpark idea of which choke might be close to the pattern I seek. I chose the modified choke and shot 4 more with it to get a 5 shot average. I'll post the details of the cyl choke pattern next. Spoiler alert: the steel pattern is still blown up.

With regard to TSS on top, my speculation was that:

1. The TSS shot was blowing up the steel pattern as it moved forward through the steel and putting it on top might allow the steel to form a normal pattern contributing more to the 30" center.
2. Perhaps the TSS shot pattern was not that significantly dispersed by its interaction with the steel shot as it moved ahead of the steel and I would be able to get a 70% TSS pattern from the cylinder choke even if it the TSS was on top.

If these two speculations held true, the pattern statistics might be closer to what I need.

 

[cd2]

The TSS does overtake the steel forcing the TSS to open up. That is the whole point of the duplex. It allows a more even pattern of tungsten instead of just a tight core. There's no use in loading TSS in a shell if it only contributes to 10-12 inches of your pattern.

In my opinion, if you are going to load a steel duplex with the TSS on top, you might as well load a straight TSS load and not waste the steel shot. Shooting a CYL choke with your duplex will give you a more open pattern with your TSS, sure, but your steel in the pattern will be thin at best. At that point, if you are solely relying on the TSS, why even have the steel in the shell?

This is solely my opinion, based on 4 or 5 thousand rounds of TSS duplexing

Ditch the longshot, ditch the roll crimps, ditch the 2-3/4 hulls with that load

Post a pattern after doing those things and compare

 

[JFG]

Interesting and informative….

 

[duckrogers]

I going to proceed with posting my pattern results for the duplex load I tested on 3/17 to get all that data on record in this thread.

However, at this point I'm probably not going to load any more of this particular shell since:

1. two of the patterns showed erratic behavior.
2. none of the patterns met my success criteria.
3. the advice here is to switch to a duplex load with Alliant Steel powder or switch to a pure TSS load.

To reiterate, the load tested was:

• 12 ga Cheddite 2-3/4” 8mm brass, new, primed, skived
• 29 grains Longshot
• TPS 12ga 35mm wad
• X12X Symmetrical Gas Seal
• 3/4 oz Zinc-Plated Steel Shot #3
• 1/2 oz TSS #9
• 12 ga overshot card
• roll crimp

Refer to my post #228 for details of the patterning procedure and analysis.

Duplex pattern #1 results (cylinder choke, 40 yds):

Pattern statistics:

Steel pellets on the board = 77 (69% of total steel)

Tungsten pellets on the board = 150 (79% of total tungsten)

Steel pellets in 30” circle = 23 (21% of total steel)

Tungsten pellets in 30” circle = 124 (65% of total tungsten)

Total pellets in 30” circle = 157 (52% of total pellets)

Total pellets in 20”-30” annulus = 63 (21% of total pellets)


Comments on duplex pattern #1:

This pattern has a "modified pattern" center of tungsten shot combined with a blown steel shot pattern. The steel shot does not contribute much to the pellet count in a 30” circle around POI. It does not meet success criteria for either “pellet count in the 30” circle on POI” or “pellet count in the 20”-30” outer annulus.” In addition, the POI is 10” from POA. Since the pattern was shot from a bench rest, it is very unlikely that human error caused more than 3” of this deviation. I have shot dozens of 40 yard patterns from a bench rest and have never seen shotgun insight give a POI more than 5” from POA. A 10” deviation between POI and POA is unacceptably large.

 

[Dr Swane]

I going to proceed with posting my pattern results for the duplex load I tested on 3/17 to get all that data on record in this thread.

However, at this point I'm probably not going to load any more of this particular shell since:

1. two of the patterns showed erratic behavior.
2. none of the patterns met my success criteria.
3. the advice here is to switch to a duplex load with Alliant Steel powder or switch to a pure TSS load.

To reiterate, the load tested was:

• 12 ga Cheddite 2-3/4” 8mm brass, new, primed, skived
• 29 grains Longshot
• TPS 12ga 35mm wad
• X12X Symmetrical Gas Seal
• 3/4 oz Zinc-Plated Steel Shot #3
• 1/2 oz TSS #9
• 12 ga overshot card
• roll crimp

Refer to my post #228 for details of the patterning procedure and analysis.

Duplex pattern #1 results (cylinder choke, 40 yds):

View attachment 381934

View attachment 381936

Pattern statistics:

Steel pellets on the board = 77 (69% of total steel)

Tungsten pellets on the board = 150 (79% of total tungsten)

Steel pellets in 30” circle = 23 (21% of total steel)

Tungsten pellets in 30” circle = 124 (65% of total tungsten)

Total pellets in 30” circle = 157 (52% of total pellets)

Total pellets in 20”-30” annulus = 63 (21% of total pellets)


Comments on duplex pattern #1:

This pattern has a "modified pattern" center of tungsten shot combined with a blown steel shot pattern. The steel shot does not contribute much to the pellet count in a 30” circle around POI. It does not meet success criteria for either “pellet count in the 30” circle on POI” or “pellet count in the 20”-30” outer annulus.” In addition, the POI is 10” from POA. Since the pattern was shot from a bench rest, it is very unlikely that human error caused more than 3” of this deviation. I have shot dozens of 40 yard patterns from a bench rest and have never seen shotgun insight give a POI more than 5” from POA. A 10” deviation between POI and POA is unacceptably large.

Simplicity in the load is sometimes the best consistency.

If you’re considering a total revamp, the hw13 1.125-1.25oz loading may demonstrate a more consistent pellet count. Already loaded in the hevi12 options, and you don’t have to track down $70/1pound of a-steel (should be more available in the summer)

 

[Dr Swane]

Hevi-XII 12 Gauge 3" 1 1/8oz 1500 FPS 516920

Shoot three shot sizes smaller than steel for the same lethality with 28% more tungsten pellets on target. Buy the Hevishot Hevi-XII 12 Gauge 3" 1 1/8oz 1500 FPS and other great Hevi-Shot products at Rogers Sporting Goods!

www.rogerssportinggoods.com

It’s about 17.5pounds of hevi 12 shot, already loaded for $520 from Rogers ($30/pound of shot + hulls, wads, powder, primers). This may simplify your needed use.

This is #2 shot pictured. True to payload weight.

 

[duckrogers]

Hevi-XII 12 Gauge 3" 1 1/8oz 1500 FPS 516920

Shoot three shot sizes smaller than steel for the same lethality with 28% more tungsten pellets on target. Buy the Hevishot Hevi-XII 12 Gauge 3" 1 1/8oz 1500 FPS and other great Hevi-Shot products at Rogers Sporting Goods!

www.rogerssportinggoods.com

It’s about 17.5pounds of hevi 12 shot, already loaded for $520 from Rogers ($30/pound of shot + hulls, wads, powder, primers). This may simplify your needed use.

This is #2 shot pictured. True to payload weight.

Thanks for posting that. I've definitely had my eye on the Hevi-XII shells and the Remington wingmaster HD shells and will probably test both in addition to continuing to play with TSS/duplex and 100% TSS loads this spring/summer.

Did you note if the pellet count per ounce in the Hevi-XII is true to the advertised density and pellet size? Is the shot in the HEVI-XII shells actually HW13 shot from RSI? I read a blog post by "Dave in AZ" in which he tested the density of RSI HW13 #6 shot and he got 12g/cc. Then also read a forum post by Bug Doc in 2015 where he found the HW13 #6 shot to be 0.11" pellet diameter and 195 pellets/oz consistent with 13g/cc.

Advertised density for the wingmaster HD is 11.6 g/cc and the smallest pellet they offer is #6 so, if true to advertised, that would require the 1 3/8 oz shell to meet my pellet count goal. I haven't seen any price on these below $5/shell so they are significantly more expensive than a TSS/steel duplex or even 100% TSS handload right now.

If the Hevi-XII #6 shot is true to density and size, the 1 1/4 oz load of #6 would have ~256 pellets. This is short of my pellet count goal so I would have dismantle the shells, reclaim the shot and reload 1 3/8 oz to 1 1/2 oz to get 280-300 pellets. This is looking like it would cost a bit more than a 100% TSS load.

 

[Dr Swane]

Thanks for posting that. I've definitely had my eye on the Hevi-XII shells and the Remington wingmaster HD shells and will probably test both in addition to continuing to play with TSS/duplex and 100% TSS loads this spring/summer.

Did you note if the pellet count per ounce in the Hevi-XII is true to the advertised density and pellet size? Is the shot in the HEVI-XII shells actually HW13 shot from RSI? I read a blog post by "Dave in AZ" in which he tested the density of RSI HW13 #6 shot and he got 12g/cc. Then also read a forum post by Bug Doc in 2015 where he found the HW13 #6 shot to be 0.11" pellet diameter and 195 pellets/oz consistent with 13g/cc.

Advertised density for the wingmaster HD is 11.6 g/cc and the smallest pellet they offer is #6 so, if true to advertised, that would require the 1 3/8 oz shell to meet my pellet count goal. I haven't seen any price on these below $5/shell so they are significantly more expensive than a TSS/steel duplex or even 100% TSS handload right now.

If the Hevi-XII #6 shot is true to density and size, the 1 1/4 oz load of #6 would have ~256 pellets. This is short of my pellet count goal so I would have dismantle the shells, reclaim the shot and reload 1 3/8 oz to 1 1/2 oz to get 280-300 pellets. This is looking like it would cost a bit more than a 100% TSS load.

This new stuff claims to be hevi 12g/cc

I weighed out the overall average for the 2’s and believe it was 5.2gn/pellet overall, accounting for varied shot sizes. Field tests prove it kills geese at long range 45yards +

Before you dismantle a load for repurposing, I’d suggest trying if it in the field. I’ve read reports of it being used on river hunts and killing at distance (6’s)

 

[duckrogers]

Duplex pattern #3 (imp cyl choke):

Pattern statistics:

Steel pellets on the board = 71 (63% of total steel)

Tungsten pellets on the board = 130 (68% of total tungsten)

Steel pellets in 30” circle = 24 (21% of total steel)

Tungsten pellets in 30” circle = 39 (20% of total tungsten)

Total pellets in 30” circle = 63 (21% of total pellets)

Total pellets in 20”-30” annulus = 48 (16% of total pellets)



Comments on duplex pattern #3:

This is a doughnut shaped pattern with no central density. Both the steel and the tungsten shot are blown out of the 30” circle around POI.

 

[Northhunter]

Before you dismantle a load for repurposing, I’d suggest trying if it in the field. I’ve read reports of it being used on river hunts and killing at distance (6’s)

Definitely pattern a few before tearing them down. You're still stuck on a lead pellet count.

I'm loading 7's in 20ga. 3/4oz. I'm not hunting chukar and want dense, tight patterns.. but 3/4oz gets it done.