The most misunderstood......

Discussion in 'Gun Dog Forum' started by KwickLabs, Sep 11, 2019 at 10:18 AM.

  1. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    phrase in retriever training is "the proper use of an e-collar". :reader :yes :h

    This just "popped" into my head. :tu
     
  2. Hoytman

    Hoytman Elite Refuge Member

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    Certainly! Means different things in different programs, therefore different things to different people depending on what program they are following or are familiar with. I was thinking about those same comments yesterday.
     
  3. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    What are the differences you are referring to? :scratch
     
  4. Hoytman

    Hoytman Elite Refuge Member

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    One would be using it with hardly perceptible low stimulation reinforcement for known commands like the program you’re using. Maybe that’s not the best description of it, but unless someone is at all familiar with that program, then they wouldn’t know what I was talking about anyway or if my take on it was correct or not. Not saying higher levels won’t be used for correction later on in the program, as I don’t know.

    I was familiar with collars and their use well before getting into retriever training, but had not used one. I just assumed all those dog men knew what they were talking about with regard to use. After the first Smartwork seminar my viewpoint had been enlightened and suddenly the “light ‘em up” mentality I’d been around suddenly didn’t make any sense.

    What I thought was proper suddenly had ‘ compared to what’ tag attached to it. If you only know one way there’s nothing to compare it to, so that becomes the dominant way. I’m sure that is nothing new to you.

    Maybe your thoughts were different than mine, none-the-less Doc’s comment had me thinking about it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019 at 3:02 PM
  5. Labsforme

    Labsforme Senior Refuge Member

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    "One would be using it with hardly perceptible low stimulation reinforcement for known commands" We call this nagging. Correct to the proper degree at the stimulation level the dog perceives as correction.Train first, correct for a known disregard of said training.Balance in everything. Not using a program per se any more. Working with different pros but handling my own dogs ( when home, about half the year).Example of one we washed out a year and a half ago. Kept working with her. Using a 2 on Dogtra Edge hardly bothered her. Moved to a 3 and got immediate reaction to a nick. Last year some corrections. This last year and a Qual J and RJ now may get a bump every 2 weeks because she is being so honest. Graduated to being a Am AA dog.

    Jeff
     
  6. Hoytman

    Hoytman Elite Refuge Member

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    https://billhillmann.net/the-electric-collar-and-positive-reinforcement-lesson-7/

    Can you tell if the dog in this video (just watch the first minute) is perceiving any type of correction? I can't. The dog doesn't seem to react at all. I don't think he's looking for a reaction and with some other programs you must look for the reaction to know what level to begin at...your looking for a response.

    Here's the first video below.
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...8FD72E315AF5E5E05C468FD72E315AF5E5E&FORM=VIRE

    To me this style of using the collar is totally different than what I am used to. So therefore, the phrase, "proper use of the electric collar", has taken on a new context. I can no longer say that HAVE TO, " Correct...
    at the level the dog perceives a correction”. That now only works if that’s what I’m using to be collar for. The context of collar use is no longer the same...because a person has adopted an altered style of use.
    Without change there is no progression.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019 at 5:26 PM
  7. Hoytman

    Hoytman Elite Refuge Member

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    Yes, Jeff, I’m more familiar with the collar use as you described.
     
  8. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    Well, Hillmann's positive reinforcement approach with the e-collar is definitely not nagging. :reader
    The Webster definition of nagging is "persistently annoying or finding fault with someone".

    The black pup in the following photo is ten months old. She is waiting to find out if it will be her turn
    to retrieve. This is her first day of doing this setup with my older retriever - Pounce. Gigi has
    been collar conditioned via the Hillmann technique.

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Hoytman

    Hoytman Elite Refuge Member

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    I probably butchered my response to, Jeff, Jim, but hope you understood what I was saying. It’s hard to type on this phone and be fast about it let alone try and edit something...and it’s harder to see...and new glasses are being re-adjusted.

    Glasses...ughhh!!!

    Nice photo of attentive dogs patiently waiting.
     
  10. KwickLabs

    KwickLabs Elite Refuge Member

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    Instead of focusing on opinions, it may be more productive to study the basic fundamentals of Hillmann's approach.

    To fully understand how it works, one must study the information provided in the following links and integrate the
    use of an e-collar.

    There are many links to dog training vs. using Skinner's theory. However, Hillmann's approach is the only one
    that integrates the use of an e-collar.

    https://www.whatispsychology.net/bf-skinner-operant-conditioning-theory/



     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 10:21 AM
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