WACO: American Apocalypse

3B209

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In the netflix special they show and air a bunch of never seen before footage and recordings.
So i watched ep 1 last night. Youre right it has a lto of info and footage i have never seen. I wil;l definetly finish the series, but cant deny it still just puts a bad taste in the mouth. The ol boy agent who looks and sounds like Gus MCcrae, powerful interviews. Here's a guy who helped plan the ordeal. A guy who stressed that the whole ordeals planning was built on a foundation of element of surprise. Once that surprise was compromised via the mail man, he was adamant that they should call it off. He was overruled. HE went in anyway. One of the first guys ip a latter. One of the first guys to breach a window. Exchanges gunfire and pout a man holding an ak down. Takes multiple rounds , rolls off a roof, bgreaks ribs in fall, gets evacked on a news vehicles hood. Still admanet, they dshouldnt of been there that day. That brought grifs comment to mind for me, in regards to men of honor being needed to do violent things , break glass in case of emergency. You can hear the sincerity in his words. On the flip, i think theres a tone by some who still hold pride in their "operation". Few takeaways from the first ep for me;
-the body language and tone of the agents on camera prior to the siege compared to after , being essentially shown how inept their tactics were. Nobody asked them to turn cameras off until after they had took their licks. Telling of the culture imo.
- an agent states that he knew the davidians fired the first shot bc it was an m16 pattern rifle report and they "didnt have those weapons"... the VERY next shot in film shows an agent using a car as cover, firing rounds from an m16 pattern rifle. Strange.
-Tactics have came a LONG way. Sometimes advancements in tactics are born due to true ineptitude. This is probably one of those scenarios for the feds from a tactical standpoint. More flagging going on in that first episode than ive seen at a gun range just on the outskirts of stockton ca, alarming. Also the use of horse trailers to transport agents, hidden by multi colored tarps and bungee straps, bold move cotton smh. The agents taking 75 yard plus shots in full kit, with a 9mm handgun. Yee haw cowboy.
-The woman in the film whose father was the mailman, and who heard her grandpa get shot in the belly and plead to be finished off for over 30 min before someone obliged him. Then to see a woman holding a rifle in a room of children get shot as she peered a window, at nine years old, witnessing all that... just wow.
-The woman in the film who is blonde, and seems pretty damn level headed. Not a cultist crazy. Just a lady with different beliefs who seems to be a very caring mother. Nothing illegal there.
-The biggest show of what a cluster f and how poorly handled it all was, to me, is the underlying issue that a warrant was served , i dont know the whole details and could be wrong, but, i believe the warrant was for koresh and koresh only. They thought it would be a cake walk. It wasnt. They were mad about that. So women and children meant nothing to them. I think the pics of agents next to charred bodies of proof of that. Alarming.
-All americans should own a Barret chambered in 50, although i greatly prefer the 416 personally.

it all still just puts a bad taste in my mouth. on one part bc it was just overzealous stupidity, and also on a personal level bc it makes me analyze myself due to the fact that every time i watch this crap i cant help but feel zero remorse for the agents dead on the roof, and i dont feel proud of that, yet i feel it regardless.
 

Sasquatch Hunter

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Look I am pro LEO and I luv our officers that serve professionally. But, some of the covert ABC Government originations (FBI SWAT) are out of control. DEA, FBI, ATF & CIA... And NSA for cyber cracking your private data systems. The scary part is they can make up or do anything they want to you, the US citizen!
 

3B209

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Look I am pro LEO and I luv our officers that serve professionally. But, some of the covert ABC Government originations (FBI SWAT) are out of control. DEA, FBI, ATF & CIA... And NSA for cyber cracking your private data systems. The scary part is they can make up or do anything they want to you, the US citizen!
to be fair, and im not anti leo nor do i have any desecrated flag blue line gear, those men where "just doing their jobs" that day. Not much different than the leos who confiscated guns during katrina. Well to be accurate, post katrina, the NO police dep were going door to door to folks who had not left and urging them to comply with leaving and to also confiscate their guns. To me that says , you didnt listen, you cant stay here, and you cant have a means of protection. Heres guys who took an oath essentially acting like straight red coats, but they were just doing there job, even if doing so in a professional manner, they are still being red coats. I too support all leos who serve with dignity though.

Also dont care if the sky was falling and they were stacked at the door. Unless im a threat leave me the ef alone. Part of the reason those abc agencies have so much overreaching power is a tone in our country similar to your statement imo... the "i support ect ect "BUT"... similiar to "i support the 2nd amendment, but nobody needs ect ect." Theres no standing on the fence imo.
 

Sault Ste. Marie

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I don’t disagree it’s wrong. However, when trying to understand their world they didn’t consider them children. They considered them of age. Obviously on our eyes and thoughts that’s still messed up.However, around the world it isn’t all that unusual. I think that’s where we as Americans mess up on the world stage. We think that anyone who doesn’t think or act like us is initially bad and wrong and we must fix them. Meh. It’s a complicated subject. It’s not so black and white as others make it out to be.
You admit that sex with a child is wrong. Yet at the same time, you seem to give sex with a child a pass when it is conducted in other cultures while suggesting that it is wrong for Americans to pass judgment upon that illicit act. Are you advocating for moral relativism, that right and wrong is culturally defined?
 

3B209

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I don’t disagree it’s wrong. However, when trying to understand their world they didn’t consider them children. They considered them of age. Obviously on our eyes and thoughts that’s still messed up.However, around the world it isn’t all that unusual. I think that’s where we as Americans mess up on the world stage. We think that anyone who doesn’t think or act like us is initially bad and wrong and we must fix them. Meh. It’s a complicated subject. It’s not so black and white as others make it out to be.
You admit that sex with a child is wrong. Yet at the same time, you seem to give sex with a child a pass when it is conducted in other cultures while suggesting that it is wrong for Americans to pass judgment upon that illicit act. Are you advocating for moral relativism, that right and wrong is culturally defined?


Look at us now though! we endorse it. Kids may not be able to do their homework without some adult help, but they can cutt off their privates bc feelings likely planted in their heads. Wild irony there!
 

Dr Swane

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So i watched ep 1 last night. Youre right it has a lto of info and footage i have never seen. I wil;l definetly finish the series, but cant deny it still just puts a bad taste in the mouth. The ol boy agent who looks and sounds like Gus MCcrae, powerful interviews. Here's a guy who helped plan the ordeal. A guy who stressed that the whole ordeals planning was built on a foundation of element of surprise. Once that surprise was compromised via the mail man, he was adamant that they should call it off. He was overruled. HE went in anyway. One of the first guys ip a latter. One of the first guys to breach a window. Exchanges gunfire and pout a man holding an ak down. Takes multiple rounds , rolls off a roof, bgreaks ribs in fall, gets evacked on a news vehicles hood. Still admanet, they dshouldnt of been there that day. That brought grifs comment to mind for me, in regards to men of honor being needed to do violent things , break glass in case of emergency. You can hear the sincerity in his words. On the flip, i think theres a tone by some who still hold pride in their "operation". Few takeaways from the first ep for me;
-the body language and tone of the agents on camera prior to the siege compared to after , being essentially shown how inept their tactics were. Nobody asked them to turn cameras off until after they had took their licks. Telling of the culture imo.
- an agent states that he knew the davidians fired the first shot bc it was an m16 pattern rifle report and they "didnt have those weapons"... the VERY next shot in film shows an agent using a car as cover, firing rounds from an m16 pattern rifle. Strange.
-Tactics have came a LONG way. Sometimes advancements in tactics are born due to true ineptitude. This is probably one of those scenarios for the feds from a tactical standpoint. More flagging going on in that first episode than ive seen at a gun range just on the outskirts of stockton ca, alarming. Also the use of horse trailers to transport agents, hidden by multi colored tarps and bungee straps, bold move cotton smh. The agents taking 75 yard plus shots in full kit, with a 9mm handgun. Yee haw cowboy.
-The woman in the film whose father was the mailman, and who heard her grandpa get shot in the belly and plead to be finished off for over 30 min before someone obliged him. Then to see a woman holding a rifle in a room of children get shot as she peered a window, at nine years old, witnessing all that... just wow.
-The woman in the film who is blonde, and seems pretty damn level headed. Not a cultist crazy. Just a lady with different beliefs who seems to be a very caring mother. Nothing illegal there.
-The biggest show of what a cluster f and how poorly handled it all was, to me, is the underlying issue that a warrant was served , i dont know the whole details and could be wrong, but, i believe the warrant was for koresh and koresh only. They thought it would be a cake walk. It wasnt. They were mad about that. So women and children meant nothing to them. I think the pics of agents next to charred bodies of proof of that. Alarming.
-All americans should own a Barret chambered in 50, although i greatly prefer the 416 personally.

it all still just puts a bad taste in my mouth. on one part bc it was just overzealous stupidity, and also on a personal level bc it makes me analyze myself due to the fact that every time i watch this crap i cant help but feel zero remorse for the agents dead on the roof, and i dont feel proud of that, yet i feel it regardless.
He mentioned an m60, not m16

I know military and police tactics. I don’t understand the decision/lack of discipline displayed with indiscriminate suppressive fire, and use of handguns shootings towards/into windows, no positive ID, or orientation of fire displayed there.. these are supposed to be the elite, highly trained gun fighters..
 

3B209

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He mentioned an m60, not m16

I know military and police tactics. I don’t understand the decision/lack of discipline displayed with indiscriminate suppressive fire, and use of handguns shootings towards/into windows, no positive ID, or orientation of fire displayed there.. these are supposed to be the elite, highly trained gun fighters..
you know what based on the way that ol boy talked that makes a lot more sense and i stand corrected. Agree on the tactics. Good thing guys these days are a lot more improved. Regardless of "sides", a lot of families were ripped apart during those weeks and thats truly unfortunate. kids need parents, and parents shouldnt have to burry their kids. That goes for religious cultist and poorly trained agents alike. We all lost.
 

buck_master_2001

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You admit that sex with a child is wrong. Yet at the same time, you seem to give sex with a child a pass when it is conducted in other cultures while suggesting that it is wrong for Americans to pass judgment upon that illicit act. Are you advocating for moral relativism, that right and wrong is culturally defined?
I knew someone was gonna twist this. But yeah right and wrong is is both culturally defined and religiously defined. We as Americans seem to think that only our views are the right views and everyone else is “wrong”. Especially once you insert beliefs based on the more than 4,000 religions in this world.

I would prefer not to go down this rabbit hole though.
 
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Fogie

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I knew someone was gonna twist this. But yeah right and wrong is is both culturally defined and religiously defined. We as Americans seem to think that only our views are the right views and everyone else is “wrong”. Especially once you insert beliefs based on the more than 4,000 religions in this world.

I would prefer not to go down this rabbit hole though.

You have been uncharacteristically lucid and reasonable in this thread afaic. Feeling OK?
 

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