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BigSkyDuk

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I don’t know how anyone who isn’t Russian or a Russian shill could possibly take Russia’s side at this point. But saying that Russia is objectively wrong is NOT the same thing as saying the Ukrainians are saints. It’s strange, and a sad reflection of how “black and white” our society has become that people are trying to take sides in this like there’s actually a right answer. There’s an awful lot of gray here—it’s more accurate to say that Ukraine is “less bad” than that Ukraine is “good.” A big part of the reason Ukraine is less bad in this particular instance is that Ukraine didn’t do the invading. If the roles were reversed and Ukraine had tried to invade and seize a bunch of Russian territory and citizens the moral calculation would be considerably different, IMO.
 

yellowlab03

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I don’t know how anyone who isn’t Russian or a Russian shill could possibly take Russia’s side at this point. But saying that Russia is objectively wrong is NOT the same thing as saying the Ukrainians are saints. It’s strange, and a sad reflection of how “black and white” our society has become that people are trying to take sides in this like there’s actually a right answer. There’s an awful lot of gray here—it’s more accurate to say that Ukraine is “less bad” than that Ukraine is “good.” A big part of the reason Ukraine is less bad in this particular instance is that Ukraine didn’t do the invading. If the roles were reversed and Ukraine had tried to invade and seize a bunch of Russian territory and citizens the moral calculation would be considerably different, IMO.

I feel like we have it so drilled into us as Americans that Russia is bad and is our enemy (and they are) that if Ukraine invaded them we'd still be on their (Ukraines) side.
 

BigSkyDuk

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I feel like we have it so drilled into us as Americans that Russia is bad and is our enemy (and they are) that if Ukraine invaded them we'd still be on their (Ukraines) side.
I think Russia has enough centuries of history proving itself as an antagonistic country that the default level of distrust the rest of the world has for them is justified. Obviously we have half a century plus of Cold War experience that maybe makes us a little more jaded. But if the Russians are complaining about how the world sees them in this conflict they only have their own conduct over half a millennium or more to blame; the fact is they’ve rarely—if ever—been the white knights.
 

Holesinthesky

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War is violently brutal.
Only the U.S. and our Allies fight by the rules.

It is easy to armchair quarterback from your comfy recliner.

Atrocities happen in all conflicts, by both sides.

Right now Ukraine is being portrayed as good, only because for 100 years or so….. Russia is bad, has been beaten into our heads.

Anyone who forms their opinion based on what some reporter says……. Well as the saying goes.
I can fix ignorance
I can’t fix stupid.

Yes, Russia invading is wrong based on our mindset of “Western Beliefs”.

But that same logic could be applied likewise.

Ukraine is planning War Crimes, ……what about the civilians that poisoned Russian Troops? That is also a War Crime.

Russia shot civilians, yet every night we see that Ukrainian Civilians took up arms against Russian Troops.

So the Russian Troops are being engaged, and they fire back….. oh they killed civilians.

So what am I saying.
War Sucks, War is Brutal, War is Violent , regardless of the outcome, both sides loose.

For those that have walked thru the Valley. You have my sympathy and gratitude.
War is Hell, and stays with many after the war ends.
 

Steelshot Scott

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War is violently brutal.
Only the U.S. and our Allies fight by the rules.

It is easy to armchair quarterback from your comfy recliner.

Atrocities happen in all conflicts, by both sides.

Right now Ukraine is being portrayed as good, only because for 100 years or so….. Russia is bad, has been beaten into our heads.

Anyone who forms their opinion based on what some reporter says……. Well as the saying goes.
I can fix ignorance
I can’t fix stupid.

Yes, Russia invading is wrong based on our mindset of “Western Beliefs”.

But that same logic could be applied likewise.

Ukraine is planning War Crimes, ……what about the civilians that poisoned Russian Troops? That is also a War Crime.

Russia shot civilians, yet every night we see that Ukrainian Civilians took up arms against Russian Troops.

So the Russian Troops are being engaged, and they fire back….. oh they killed civilians.

So what am I saying.
War Sucks, War is Brutal, War is Violent , regardless of the outcome, both sides loose.

For those that have walked thru the Valley. You have my sympathy and gratitude.
War is Hell, and stays with many after the war ends.
Civilians that poison enemy troops of an invading army are not war criminals. They are the resistance or partisans to the Ukrainians. To the Russians, they would be spies or saboteurs, subject to summary execution as directed by the Geneva Convention.

But not war criminals.

An attack that kills civilians is not a "war crime".

Purposefully targeting children as a tactic of war is a war crime and the only country doing that is Russia.
 

Bclick

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Looks like Russia took Mariupol.
Think Russia left the barracks standing in Siberia where they sent 6th Army to? Would be a good destination for Azov
 

Bclick

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I don’t know how anyone who isn’t Russian or a Russian shill could possibly take Russia’s side at this point. But saying that Russia is objectively wrong is NOT the same thing as saying the Ukrainians are saints. It’s strange, and a sad reflection of how “black and white” our society has become that people are trying to take sides in this like there’s actually a right answer. There’s an awful lot of gray here—it’s more accurate to say that Ukraine is “less bad” than that Ukraine is “good.” A big part of the reason Ukraine is less bad in this particular instance is that Ukraine didn’t do the invading. If the roles were reversed and Ukraine had tried to invade and seize a bunch of Russian territory and citizens the moral calculation would be considerably different, IMO.
There was a largely unreported hot war going on in the territories of the SE of Ukraine for almost a decade. Many ethnic russians were killed by ukraine there.

When the USSR dissolved they left behind huge minorities who were eventually going to be a right of return issue. Terrible lack of understanding of history on our state depts part. Germany used ethnic germans as a precursor as an excuse for war. Big difference is the czechs werent shelling germans in sudeten markets leading up to that annexation. Ukrainians were in Donbas. Throw in an open embrace of a Nazi brigade and what did we think would happen....exactly what the CIA wanted and what we got, a proxy war with Russia.

Ive always equated this to how we would act if China set up a puppet govt in Mexico and started murdering American Expats living in Lake Chapala. Doubt it would take us less than a week to have III Corps gassed up and rolling into Mexico City.
 
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Bclick

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